WW1 Map Ideas

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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

hepster
Looking good!

Excited to see a working proof of concept.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
In reply to this post by crazy_german
The more I look at the map, the more I think that at least an upkeep cost of 1 PUs per unit is a must here; maps with a lot of territories and with a land centred setup tend to have a low frontline territories / total territories ratio, which means progressive stacking. But I'd let you play it a bit and see how the stacking goes.
This definitively looks less close to your normal Axis&Allies game and more akin to more traditional and involved typologies of wargames.
I know you don't really care about realism, but having so geographically small territories means that the issues of the traditional TA ruleset are extremised, in particular production times. While it is already wrong that you can produce a battleship in 1 turn, in a map like this it would be extremely wrong, and having it taking 2 turns won't do much either. A battleship takes 2 years to build and, on this scope, I guess 1 turn is a couple of weeks; so, you can do the math.
I still suggest having the Gabes and El Alamein chokepoints correctly represented (only 1 land territory connection moving there on the coastline) and those couple more islands in the Aegean I said (the Cyclades and some Sporades centred on Lesbos).
Rest I think looks good, except maybe the Italian territories at the frontline of Austria, as I believe you should have the "Trentino - Alto Adige" as 1 single territory, not part of the northernmost "North Tirol" like here (practically, 1 territory should represent the WW1 gain of Italy, not significantly more or less), and that territory should connect to only 2 Italian territories, not 3, to avoid excessive strategic importance; moreover the Italian territory on the north - east should be limited representing the portion of Italy from the start-war frontline till the Piave river.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caporetto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_the_Piave_River

It would be good if the map structure represent that frontline change, as it was the only 1 major frontline movement for the entire war on the Italian front (meaning that now your drawing goes down to the Po river, while it should stop at the Piave, and having another territory between the Piave and the Po).
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
In reply to this post by crazy_german
Also, I already said it, but the colours here definitively make me think this map is about Napoleonic Empires, not WW1 (Austria yellow, Russia green...). Of course, colours are not much important, and have to be managed creatively, but it would be, like, definitively weird if you are playing a WW2 game and Germany is green instead of grey, I'm sure you agree; so, I would try to have WW1, not Napoleonic Empires or some other era, as the base, which means Austria should be some sort of blue and Russia should be some sort of brownish-yellow (but distinct enough from UK), or alternatively some kind of blue (but distinct enough from Austria and France), preferably (my suggestions are the colour of the Romanians in WAW for the Austrians here and the colour of Yamamoto in WAW for the Russians here).

I guess most people won't be "horrified" to see a green Russia or a yellow Austria in WW1 as they would be to see a green Germany or a yellow USA in a WW2 map, but it will still strike at least a few people that are expecting to find the colours normally historically associated with the powers at the time. Just saying; then, again, colours are just colours: whatever works, at the end, as long as it is good for gameplay.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Frostion
In reply to this post by crazy_german
Maybe you should think about changing the Egypt or British color to an orange / kaki like color. There seems to be too many red nuances  on the map. Orange i actually quite distinguishable from yellow and red, despite the fact that it is a mix of them.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
The shades of green are the least distinguishable, the shades of red are the most. To have a playable and good looking game, you can't afford having but a very few green players, especially for units (this is probably why, for example, only Americans are green in WAW and Anzac isn't, despite being dark green for ownerships; the same for most WW2 games units, in which we see green Americans, but don't see green Italians; even cutting out a second player for the units is a stretch, especially if one of the green is very much so, like the normal TripleA Americans green; more doable for the ownership colours).

This is why I really can't understand why to make the Russians green in WW1 (of course, I would have them green in Napoleon). I guess, if the Russians are "standard" green, you have made the Italians either very dark or almost yellow, to set them apart. I think making the Russians having an intermediate colour between green and yellow should be fine, as long as the Austrians are not yellow.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
In reply to this post by Frostion
The red and orange, other than being very distinct while being quite close, have also the characteristics that they look like different colours when you make them darker or brighter; you can obtain red and pink on one hand, and orange and brown on the other, that are like different colours, while really aren't (like brown is not really a colour, but just dark orange) (tho, I can't think of a WWI player to have in pink).
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Cernel
I think the colors i used was taken directly from dom 1914, but the USA color for Russia (i don't like having a white nation).  I didn't put much thought into them, they are very open to changes. I will not be altering the map itself, until the initial release, at that point we can start editing chokepoints and islands.

For upkeep costs, my first problem is the horrible end of turn pop up when every single unit produces -1 PUs. My second issue is I don't think massive stacks are an inevitable problem, and I don't think that upkeep is even that good of a tool to address overstacking in the first place. I don't see how you can think -1PU upkeep is a good idea when units cost only 3-4 PUs each. The only map I have every played that has a big stacking problem is NWO, and its because incomes are so high, and the fodder units are so cheap. The way I see it, if each turn you have X income, and each turn you lose Y value of units, then when X is too large compared to Y, you get massive stacks. In NWO, stacks pile up, because Germany has 100+ income but loses nothing but 2 PU infantry each turn, so it can easily stack up 90% or more of its income each turn for a long period of time, which easily reaches hundreds of units.

In this map, I'm trying to keep income is fairly low, you will not be maxing out all factories, and the frontlines are enormous so hopefully there is a fair amount of action and territory trading (that Russian Front is HUGE)

For realism, I think a game with only 1 front line change on the italian front, will be pretty boring, so I will not make any effort to produce that situation. I want Italy to be fun to play (IMO its not on current ww1 scenarios)
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Frostion
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Cernel
I think russian green is fine.
Pink is a distinct color and should not be left out if it helps the gameplay and overview. I use pink in Caribbean Trade Wars map for the Danish, as the danish flag is primarily red, but red was reserved for the British redcoats

Maybe this WW1 map could have the British be kaki and not red. Then maybe Egypt or Turkey could be pink and red?
By the way pink has not always been looked at as a girlish color. In many years before our recent modern times, pink was a boy color expressing energy and courage, while blue was a good girls innocence and purity. The popular history only shows us black and blue sailor clothes for boys (Donald duck uniforms), but they were also often pink in colors. And girls' hair ribbons mostly blue.

 Anyway, even military used pink. Like german panzer-pink branch color, or rose pink.
Its mostly for the good looks and not field practical, look at this guy:
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

hepster
In reply to this post by crazy_german
I think all this speculation is silly.  Crazy German has not even communicated any of the info pertaining to the specifics of the map other than a few territory values.  The whole colour conversation is a minor issue that pertains to esthetics... something that can be dealt with much further down the road.


I am simply looking forward to seeing his vision as it is ready.

Keep going I want to see this thing come to life.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
Well, but the very small territories is a fact. The traditional TripleA ruleset (which Crazy German intends to mostly use, as he made clear he wants to play pretty standard) is partially good at representing warfare over very broad geographic territories, like in Classic, where all France is less than 1 territory and all Germany is less than 1 territory. All the maps having the territories smaller than Classic, while retaining mostly the traditional ruleset, have incurred in the problem of extremising the limits of such ruleset, ironically making apparently more complex games even much less realistic than Classic itself, which is not that much of a realistic game to start with.
I mean, the territory dimensions is about right, since WWI was about tendentially minor frontline changes (for example, the current territories are barely small enough to not too much overrepresent the biggest frontline change ever on the Italian front), but this causes major representative problems with respect to the traditional ruleset (if you really want to keep it with limited changes, which I'm suggesting not to).
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

hepster
Again, that is all speculative until you see what he has done... there are so many factors that contribute to the overall performance of a game.  

Crazy German has been pretty vague about the specifics... (intentionally and for which I applaud his marketing strategy)... and there are so many elements and variables we have yet to see... well I'd rather see his vision and then give him feed back... rather than to stifle his creative juices before he ever gets to give us his vision.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Navalland
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Cernel
Congratulations! Definitely It is going to be the best Triplea map I have ever seen.

Do Germany start with Belgium and Russia start with Galicia, Britain start with Gaza and Austria start with Trentino?
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Frostion
In reply to this post by crazy_german
I could not help myself  I had to try to make some test versions of how the unit graphics could look like. If crazy_german let me do the units graphics.  If someone else volunteers on the map, that would be perfect.

So I made three infantry models for France, Britain and Germany. They are 54x54 pixels, but TripleA has not problem handling this size. I find it a good and maximum compatible size.


I made tried to figure out a system that could allow to show distinct colors, but also allow detailed and nice looking units. This system would not have units stand on flags but instead all units would stand on a disc glowing with colored light. The light colors could be toned down a bit, but then the distinctiveness would also suffer:


There are 13 colors (one of them is White)
Color 01FFFF00
Color 0280FF00
Color 0300FF00
Color 0400FF80
Color 0500FFFF
Color 060080FF
Color 070000FF
Color 088000FF
Color 09FF00FF
Color 10FF0080
Color 11FF0000
Color 12FF8000
Color 13White/Grey

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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Navalland
@hepps, why thank you sir. It is coming along, I realized that I accidntally was making a 1.8 XML (all my map making utilities aren't updated) so that is another thing I need to fix

@cernel, for colors I am open to changes, it isn't a personal priority so I will do what ever is popular. At this point I'm just repeating myself so I won't be commenting again

@Navalland - it is supposed to start in mid-1915, right when Italy joined the war, so yes Belgium is German controlled, and a few other areas have changed ownership as well. The borders may not be drawn with total accuracy. I am glad you are excited!

@Frostion- I would really appreciate help with images, I would happily let you handle units. With that said, I am partial to monochromatic units, and I'm not a huge fan of how those bottoms look, maybe they could be a bit more muted? Right now my eye is drawn to the bright bottom and not the soldier or his gun. How would those look against a background of a similar color?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
In reply to this post by Frostion
How about a border highlight like the Napoleonic Empires Generals? Anyway, as long as the units are distinctive and all, is not a big deal memorising who is who, at the end.
I would surely suggest 64x64 but, if you are annoyed by the cut issues, then 56x56 is the most common size in between of 48x48 and 64x64, instead of 54x54.
I suggest you keep in the folder both the images as basic and the images with whatever you add to make them more distinctive, also to ease off future additions and corrections (like, in the above case, having also the first 3 infantries in the folders, called "Infantry_basic", even if useless for game's purposes).

Will this map have a distinction between heavy artillery and light artillery and will it have machine guns?

Probably better having 1915 as part of the game's name.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
I meant something like this:



Anyway, my suggestion is finishing up all images the way Frostion proposed in the first 3 cases (which I think is the best), then thinking what to do to make them more distinctive after having played some games (I suggest not going for the monocolour, which is rather cheap). You might be surprised that nothing is needed.
As a 270BC player, I can say it is not a big deal to memorise multicolour units, recognising them instantly, and these ones should be much more easier to memorise than the 270BC ones.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Navalland
In reply to this post by Navalland
Personally i don t like additions for unit images coloured circles or red dots etc and complex unit images it s too annoying for eyes. I prefer classic triplea unit images.

Yellow is not good for austria I think.

Creating the gallipoli theatre would be good. Because the game will start from 1915.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
Regarding Gallipoli, how about waiting a few months more and actually starting the game in september or october 1915, having Bulgaria at war since the start?
I would surely advice that, if not having any delayed entry, as Bulgaria was definitely an important part of WW1 and its entry marks the start of the actual downfall of Serbia, which, I guess, you don't want or even can't have it stalemated for any long amount of time (as well as the definitive doom of Gallipoli) right away.
This way the game starts right when Serbia gets pawned fast, which is probably what is gona happen in game (or may be advisable).
And, yes, then the UK should own Gallipoli at start with some relatively big forces that can't really do much good staying there (and not anywhere strong enough to just frontally attack the Ottoman), thus the Allied player should choose where to send them, instead.
Starting a bit later in 1915 may also help you to figure out how to portray the Greece mess.
Even tho you don't want it, I would think the best is having Serbia and Bulgaria as players, or maybe minors TWW style, to assure not having like Serbian units to manage for the rest of the game, after Serbia is briefly gone.

(from your drawing, I see that Serbia is active and Bulgaria is Neutral; I surey advice having both active is the best, assuming you don't want a condition-related user-action for activating Bulgaria; seems obvious enough to have Bulgaria into the fray right away, since you are starting in 1915 anyhow (only issue is losing all the 1915 campaign, for starting in september or october of it, especially the conquest of Poland in august))
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
I considered having Bulgaria active at the start; its definitely not a bad idea. I don't think serbia or bulgaria will be independant nations. I might just leave the borders as is and put Bulgaria under German control

British controlled Gallipoli would be very difficult though, its so close to the ottoman capital and so far from British factories. The issue with recreating that battle is that I don't think its a very wise move for the British, you can attack Turkey literally anywhere else and get more favorable circumstances. Good players won't be doing stupid moves, even if historically that nation did.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
crazy_german wrote
British controlled Gallipoli would be very difficult though, its so close to the ottoman capital and so far from British factories. The issue with recreating that battle is that I don't think its a very wise move for the British, you can attack Turkey literally anywhere else and get more favorable circumstances. Good players won't be doing stupid moves, even if historically that nation did.
Correct. And this is why the best way to represent Gallipoli is starting with it going on, since if you would realistically represent it before, nobody in his right mind would actually do that. Basically, you would just have a bunch of forces in Gallipoli, close to impossible to reinforce, with some transports to move around like half of them, and the player decides what to do with them, like a 1 time card.

However, if the map starts while Gallipoli is going on, you should have some UK there at start game. It would be a major thing just ignoring it (and, anyway, those forces weren't just slaughtered, but also sent elsewhere, mostly Greece).

Regarding Bulgaria, I think you can start in may 1915 and having Bulgaria joining the war (theorically it should be on round 10, if 1 turn is half month) with a simple trigger that has it as a normal player that can't move out of its borders till round 10 unless attacked by anyone, and then, in this case, it becomes fully active immediately. Since Bulgaria should have very little income and also start with a small army, the buildup process should make sense. If it is a straight trigger that have it joining at exactly the X round and it is the only 1 in the game I think it may be bearable, but I would still suggest just having the game starting in september 1915 and having Bulgaria active since start:

This would be the front at the end of september tho (in a way, starting with Russia having no Galicia and Serbia going down immediately may feel more natural):
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