WW1 Map Ideas

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WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
Yes, yet another thread for brainstorming ww1 ideas. Basically, I am going to make a ww1 map, and I wanted to get some thoughts on my ideas so far. I have a rough draft map image completed, the map is extremely large and ideally will be useable for scenarios other than just ww1. I have the following goals

1) Neither side forced into any strategy. Kill France first and kill Russia first should be equally strong strategies
2) Simplicity, very limited extra features, easy to play
3) Fun to play, good replay value, no 2 games play out quite the same

Historical accuracy is a secondary goal

To help achieve the above I am considering the following to implement. I'm curious how others would feel about these

-The United States will not be in the game. I could give the UK extra income after a certain event, but I think leaving out the USA as a seperate nation will help with #1
-Starting sometime in 1915, after Italy has joined the war. This lets it be somewhat accurate without needing a complex politics system. I think its easier to balance with these boundaries as well
-Splitting Germany into 2 separate nations, like Hisachi/Yamamoto in other games. The primary goal here is letting Germany have 2 nations in the north atlantic, so it can do anything that France/UK can
-I will be including a railroad system
-I am considering a very simple politics system for a limited number of nations, possibly just Romania and Bulgaria, maybe an Arab revolt
-Tech is something I am unsure about. I certainly will not be implementing the tech system of No Man's Land, it is really unbalanced. Maybe just let certain weapons be purchased after turn X, like in NWO?

I have seen many good ww1 attempts die to feature creep, so do be aware that I am going to be heavily factoring in how much complexity a given feature adds
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
In my opinion, the only way to have both a decent level of simplicity and of realism is starting in March 1918. This way you could also have no tech and same frontiers, as the Germans would be able to produce armours too.
In my mind, the only thing that may be more important than realism is simplicity, which is going to curb realism anyway, by definition. I would address balance by simply choosing a scenario that can be realistically balanced (it is often a very loose opinion) or a realistic victory condition. Rest I think should be less important than realism.
On the other hand, a 1918 start may create issues between realism and balance, since one may argue the game needing being unbalanced in favour of the Entente, at that point. This can be solved with a "moral victory" condition, in which the Alliance just needs to survive for some time; tho such alternative victory conditions are always lame, but better than an irrelistically balanced scenario.
Also, I suggest calling the alliances "Entente" and "Alliance", instead of the common "Allies" and "Central Powers". "Entente" would make little sense by 1918, but I really don't like the "Central Powers" name; rater "Alliés" and "Alliance".
This way you could call the game "Alliance & Allies"...
Also, I believe territory and units names should be all in French ("infanterie" or whatever).
I suggest you have trains as land transports; this way a same train can transport multiple units on the same turn (they should have like movement 12; and this way you can like keep going back and forth of 3 spaces, and transport 2 units forward of 3 spaces every turn). Of course trains should have a fuel cost, also because they tended to wear off and break down quite a lot back then. On the other hand, I would have no fuel costs for most other things, and surely not for the "infanterie" or "cavalerie"; sadly, as now there is the problem (I'm not sure) that transported still use fuel. It may be an idea having fuel cost for the trains only and maybe triggering it on for Combat Move only for the "artillerie".
I definitively suggest all normal units having upkeep costs (negative income production); you can have them costing 1 PUs each of upkeep, to keep it simple.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
To repeat the original post, realism is going to come secondary. (Perhaps later I could make the game begin on January 18th, 1919. Then Germany surrenders on turn 1 everygame, and bam! Perfect realism  )

I was expecting someone to complain about USA not being in the war, but instead I get the suggestion to leave Russia out. In my opinion its not ww1 if there is no eastern front. Unit names will be in English. Territory names will be either be all in English or in the local languages if possible. The Alliance names will be Central and Entente, replacing Central with Allies would confuse many people I think. I am not adding alternate win conditions to make it more realistic, that's not the goal of this map. Conquering all of Europe is part of the fun anyways
Cernel wrote
I suggest you have trains as land transports; this way a same train can transport multiple units on the same turn (they should have like movement 12; and this way you can like keep going back and forth of 3 spaces, and transport 2 units forward of 3 spaces every turn). Of course trains should have a fuel cost, also because they tended to wear off and break down quite a lot back then. On the other hand, I would have no fuel costs for most other things, and surely not for the "infanterie" or "cavalerie"; sadly, as now there is the problem (I'm not sure) that transported still use fuel. It may be an idea having fuel cost for the trains only and maybe triggering it on for Combat Move only for the "artillerie".
I definitively suggest all normal units having upkeep costs (negative income production); you can have them costing 1 PUs each of upkeep, to keep it simple.
Nothing about that sounds simple. I will not be adding upkeep or fuel cost. I don't want feature creep. I will be including trains only because I have found a very simple way to implement them. I have explored many options and I'm happy with a solution I found. Land transport has a major issues of only transporting 1 unit at a time. I invite you try moving units around with 12 movement, 1 capacity trains, it is anything but simple. My goal is for an easy to play map
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
How can you achieve what you want and leave Russia in? Russia surrendered under a series of conditions and infighting that would be very hard to realistically represent and would anyway require what you don't want to have, if not marginally, as you said. As I see it, leaving Russia in and keeping it simple would require not caring about realism almost at all.
You should not think that upkeep is necessarily hard; as I said, you can just say that all units have 1 PUs upkeep and it is smooth and a big boost to realism for sure (the fact that stuff costs nothing to maintain is one of the foremost issues of basic realism). Upkeep may make the game even simpler, limiting stacks.
A simple upkeep system may help removing this mith that a map with upkeep have to be complex.
Well, I don't think I would be able to figure out a simple representation of WWI leaving Russia in, but good luck.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
In reply to this post by crazy_german
crazy_german wrote
The Alliance names will be Central and Entente, replacing Central with Allies would confuse many people I think.
If you are going for "Entente", then I surely suggest "Alliance" for the other, not "Allies".
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Cernel
By leaving Russia in? I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. The goal is a simple game based on ww1, there is no need for any complex Russian revolution rules, if they get captured they get captured. I've already stated that historical accuracy is not the goal. If people demand the Russian civil war, I would consider something like in domination no man's land (which is extremely simple and fun to play)
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
Ok, I understood "secondary goal" meant something to achieve beside the main targets, even if with lower priority.
Also, I'd rather suggest giving everyone double combatmove-then-combat, instead of splitting nations in two; as long as you don't reset, this won't give double movement, but just the ability to use it before or after. It would be probably a decent way of representing the role of cavalry, while keeping it at a relatively low efficiency / cost level as a unit, even tho here we would go back to realistic considerations about it's intended employment.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
I suggest a 2 nation Germany basically to let it can-open for itself (mostly at sea), because this is a major issue in other ww1 games. On land there just aren't many 2 move units (just cavalry) so can opening is less important. I know some people don't like the split-nation thing so I was hoping to hear feedback. Double combat move is interesting but I wonder if it happens often enough to justify adding
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Navalland
In reply to this post by crazy_german
Hello.

I really like all of creating ww1 map attemts because I am aware of ww1 maps have more strategic options than ww2 maps. Here we go.

-First of of all Strategic diversity, balance and game speed are more important than historical accuracy. You can manipuate historical accuracy as you want even the territories of countries (but not too much). For example actually Baluchistan was British territory but in Dom 1914 Baluchistan is neutral territory because this property provides much more strategic options. Britain player can attack to Baluchistan immiedately or postpone. That's strategic options. If Britain had started with Baluchstan it would be worse off for strategic diversity. Also Germany can start with Mexico City and Turkey can start with some toops in the North Africa and Somali. Because there were anti-allies rebels. So starting in August 1914 would be best.

-I would prefer independent USA and should join the war in Auagust 1914 as Dom 1914.

-All countries should be one piece for game speed and strategic diversity.

-If the map is extremely large, railroad system would be good but mechanize infantry tech can provide this. Just cavalry movement power should be 3

-I dont prefer adding politics system. Game would be slow down

-Dom 1914's tech system isn't unlabalance just industry tech should privde +2 more unit instead of +3 and merchant marine should remove.Yes spending roll is luck depend but also there are too much income and easy to compensation them. Dom 1914's tech system would be much  more unbalance for medium or small maps.

-Creating convoy zones would be very good idea. Also Germany need 1 mobile factory in the Atlantic ocean which can product only submarine. But I don't know is there any code for this idea?
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Cernel
Uhm, I'd rather suggest "heavy_cavalry" at movement 2 and "light_cavalry" at movement 3 and, if you make multiple cavalry at all, then surely also "horse_artillery", at movement 2.

Starting from infantry at cost 3 and 1/2/1 stats may be:

light_cavalry: 1/1/3 cost 5
heavy_cavalry: 2/1/2 cost 6
horse_artillery: 2/2/2 cost 8 gives support to 1 cavalry

I'd make cavalry supportable only by horse_artillery, not by normal artillery, but I would allow horse_artillery to support all, on the other hand.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Navalland
Navalland wrote
-First of of all Strategic diversity, balance and game speed are more important than historical accuracy. You can manipuate historical accuracy as you want even the territories of countries (but not too much). For example actually Baluchistan was British territory but in Dom 1914 Baluchistan is neutral territory because this property provides much more strategic options. Britain player can attack to Baluchistan immiedately or postpone. That's strategic options. If Britain had started with Baluchstan it would be worse off for strategic diversity. Also Germany can start with Mexico City and Turkey can start with some toops in the North Africa and Somali. Because there were anti-allies rebels. So starting in August 1914 would be best.
I totally agree, maybe not with Germans in mexico though. With that said, I think that having the USA reduces strategic diversity due to its location. After studying the existing ww1 maps, I really think the USA really kills the possibility of a kill France first strategy for Germany, its position forces the Central powers to attack Egypt or Russia, since the US cannot really reinforce those areas. I want the central powers to have more options

Navalland wrote
-If the map is extremely large, railroad system would be good but mechanize infantry tech can provide this. Just cavalry movement power should be 3
The map is huge, and I think railroads are important to help the Central Powers (so Germany isn't forced to set up transports from Berlin). Being able to move units across Germany or Austria quickly will give them more options.

Navalland wrote
-Dom 1914's tech system isn't unlabalance just industry tech should privde +2 more unit instead of +3 and merchant marine should remove.Yes spending roll is luck depend but also there are too much income and easy to compensation them. Dom 1914's tech system would be much  more unbalance for medium or small maps.
The issue I have is that certain techs are so much stronger for certain nations while useless for others. I would let players have much more choice in what they research, if I include it. I also might just do the NWO red dot system, and let tanks and modern fighters be purchased after a few turns

Navalland wrote
-Creating convoy zones would be very good idea. Also Germany need 1 mobile factory in the Atlantic ocean which can product only submarine. But I don't know is there any code for this idea?
I know how to do this, that is a very cool idea I had never thought of!

thanks for feedback. Do you have any ideas on trenches?

It will probably just be 1 cavalry type, at move 2. The map is very large, a 3 move cavalry is very threatening on the eastern front
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Navalland
Killing France first strategy is doomed to be the worst strategy for all ww1 map. This is inevitable Because ;

-Normally USA is useles for a very long time but if Germany choice kiling France first strategy, USA might send troops to France very early in join the war very eary. Russia can take Commies and would be overpowered. Britain can kill the Ottomans, German navies and take German colonies and would be unstopable. Also focusing to only one territory is too bad because defense is easy attack is hard and Italy and Uk can support to Paris very easily.

The Order of danger according to the centrals;

1) UK
2) Russia
3) France
4) Italy

Killing France first strategy is only preferable under the conditions; otherwise useless.

-Strong France than Russia

-Commies should strong

-Very few income to the German colonies (Easy to sacrifice them)

-France shouldn't has 2 capital.

I am satisfied to Dom 1914's trenches and rules. And gas is essential unit as 1914. You can add sea mine, same construction rules 1 hit point and immune to air attacks.

Cavalry=2 movement +1 movement power with a tech.

Also I believe that gases should attack without unit support.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
Navalland wrote
Killing France first strategy is doomed to be the worst strategy for all ww1 map. This is inevitable
I think you are drawing too big a conclusion. If it turns out to be impossible I'll accept that, but I am going to try to make France first viable. I will be drawing France intentionally so that you cannot just stack Paris, you need armies elsewhere or your land will be captured. Sort of like in NWO, if Russia just spams defense its pretty easy to hold Moscow for a long time, but doing so while holding the rest of your territory is difficult.
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

lordbevan
I think Russia should have 2 capitals because St peters burg is just too far.

Another map idea will be like this:
http://uboat-aaa.blogspot.com/
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
I think the people want more territories than that map, in particular Italy-Austria would be quite boring I think. I will not be doing a zoom in box anywhere, its a major complaint of Great War.

An interesting thing is that on many existing maps Paris is actually farther from Berlin than St. Petersburg. Where would you put the second capital, Moscow? Its just as far, I could put in somewhere like Minsk which can make sense for gameplay but feels really odd. Germans can use Russia's railroads as they advance which hopefully will help with distance
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

hepster
Are you drawing a map German?
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

crazy_german
Sort of. I'm editing a map of Europe, perhaps adding North America and India later. I have zero experience editing images but I think I will have a functional, if somewhat ugly, map.

I wanted to avoid making my own map but I just didn't find a suitable existing map to use. I also wanted to add my personal touch, and I might use it for other projects. I am spending a lot of time analyzing how the territories interact
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Re: WW1 Map Ideas

Frostion
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by crazy_german
Very interesting project.  Let me know if I can help with something. I am a little occupied with school work atm. but hopefully soon I can get back to Iron War and could also give you a hand if needed.

If your map allows it I would love to see sea and land mine fields, horses, artillery, maybe horses pulling artillery :-) , trenches, balloons, mustard gas!!!. And what about spy units and diplomatic units? (maybe every player could control two player slots, a military and a diplomatic, allowing them to move diplomatic units around) It could be fun to be able to harass the other players in other ways than military. What about General Units? Maybe units with pictures of real life WW1 generals. Hero units? The red baron  and I am sure the other nations had their own heroes. Ace units? Maybe you could figure out a system that allowed upgrades to Ace or Veteran status? Maybe purchased with special resources.

About the Russian revolution, maybe you could have small events like I put in Age of Tribes? Like an AI player that suddenly began dropping red Russian in Russian territories, just as a minor nuisance. Same for USA, could it not just be a week AI player from the start?

I cant wait to see you map layout.
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Re: davidvcsandersen@hotmail.com

crazy_german
Frost, I will love some artistic support, but that is down the road. However, I must note that what you are describing is pretty much exactly why so many ww1 map attempts failed, they try to add too much. I want to publish something simple first, just because the 2 popular ww1 maps are both really heavily flawed IMO. Perhaps we can collaborate on something crazy later, but first I want to put a somewhat simple project out there

that is why I say I'm going to add just 1 advanced feature, and stop myself at that. If you can make the case for hero units being that (I actually had a plan for something like that), I'll hear it. But I want this to be a map that is very approachable and stays similar to classic tripleA maps.

For units I was going to start with the basics (inf, art, cavalry), and add whatever feels necessary. Were horse drawn artillery a huge thing in ww1? I would definitely include it a slightly earlier map

For russian revolution, my concern with your suggestion is that in a highly competitive game, players would learn where the red soldiers appear and pre-position to kill them. I'll post some map teasers tomorrow
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Re: davidvcsandersen@hotmail.com

Cernel
I don't know if it can be considered an advanced feature, but my vote would definitively be for upkeep costs (even only 1 PUs each for all but immobile infrastructures).
Having Zombie armies that costs nothing at all and can pile up forever is the worst thing, unless you are playing Zombieland; then it's fine.

My number 2, then, would be having consumable multiple steps builds, especially for battleships, that should not be popped out in 1 turn.
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