WORLD AT WAR

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ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

ice
we as veterans never had this issue, because we played and ballanced with the creator Seig, so you being new to the map saying the notes arent clear, then i think u have a good point. and that should be fixed

houwabout:

"Canals are shown by Blue Dots (You have to Own 2 sides to pass through a Canal).  Not all Canals work Proper(engine problem), but they are Visible, So in some cases you are going to need edit mode to use them by the Rules"

@ redrum, i dont understand why ur pointing to 3 territorys for nwo to move trough the istanbul canal, plzz dont change NWO whatsoever, since thats probable the best ballanced map tripple a has to offer. lets agree to only change gamenotes if they are unclear in anything

ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

DizzKneeLand33
In reply to this post by DizzKneeLand33
In addition to "play them as they work", another indicator that the engine is working properly is the following:

Changelog: 1.1.9(ice) Game notes updated FIXED ALL CANALS (emphasis added) fixed some xml problems.

So, why would anyone think that the game is not functioning as intended?
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

DizzKneeLand33
The problem with edits is that editing that would be almost a turn by turn issue in the Pacific.  What is wrong with just playing the game as it stands currently?  Is it really that out of balance otherwise, and if so to whose advantage is it?
ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

ice
In reply to this post by DizzKneeLand33
wel first notice the authors name on that changelog :)

I cant really defend myself on that matter too good now, since it was in 2011, but i honestly beleved i fixed the cannals back then to work as intended. cernel saiz this is and was impossible so I trust him, meaning i tested it wrong probably. ofcource i noticed the problems at some point, and we all yust used edit mode to bypass it. noone really felt the need to adjust the gamenotes

most likely there are more mistakes in the gamenotes, but as a defence, u can see inhere that since 2011 not many bugs where reported

yes all seig maps are carefully ballanced by a large group of experienced players, that would change the ballance of the paciffic in a bigger way then u might think. strategys are formed to use some of these cannals to take for example malaya and borneo on round 2 with japan. yes both with 100% certnenty in lowluck. imo if japan fails to expand this fast it will have too much trouble too early vs a usa strategy who goes japanfirst

ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

DizzKneeLand33
LOL about the author -- you guys have worked hard on all of this!  I really do want to defend how the game functions currently for a minute.  It is a *much* more interesting battle from a strategic standpoint to have to own all of the sides of the canal, not just the two.  It makes the battles for the islands deeper.  Sure, you can sometimes go around to a different side, but that takes up a movement point, etc.

So, my vote is to leave them function "as is" currently, for what it's worth.  :)
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

Cernel
In reply to this post by DizzKneeLand33
Me myself, even not playing WaW at all, I'm actually very surprised you all at AA org ended up playing like that (against the rules and the common sense), since the Notes are not very clear, but they do correctly state that you need 1 canal (and both territories of it), not all canals.

Also, it is pretty obvious and realistic that if you have 1 ship and want to go through some channel chain, you only need to be able to go through one of the canals doing the job; makes no sense at all that you must be able to pass through them all simultaneously.

Realistically, if there are 2 canals to go from SZX to SZY, and one strait is wide open, of course I can just move my ships through this canal; who cares if the other one is open or not? I only need one.

But I agree notes should be more clear, expecially for noobs, as I said.
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

Cernel
In reply to this post by DizzKneeLand33
Taking into account all the imputs, my solution to the current issues would be this:

1) Make the AND/OR for canals as a property being AND as default.

2) Updating WaW as to having that property editable and default set at OR (we can agree that ice's opinion is more important than Dizz's one).

3) In the current WaW tourney specifying that you must have it set to AND, as to not invalidated all games made so far that way.

This would have the following effects:

- Mapmakers would be able to set AND or OR, to a great deal of freedom.

- People like Dizz that prefer play WaW the AND way can just set the property as AND before starting their games.

- After the map gets corrected the AA org gang can keep playing it their way, with no fear of updating.

Cheers
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

DizzKneeLand33
Having the setting editable would be great!  I actually do like how it is set up now (I wasn't at first with the multiple canals, but I've grown to really like that style), so that way we can play either way.

My thinking with the multiple canals was that if you controlled one, that you were close enough to fire at the boats that were trying to make progress to stop them.  Otherwise, why would you have to hold both sides anyway?  :)
ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

ice
u can always use whatever houserule ofcource, but from multiple standpoints it wont hold

1. the creator specificaly wrote it in the rules, maybe not perfect but its really there
2. ballance is made around it, changing it could destroy the ballance on half of the map
3. as cernel pointed out. it makes the most sence even when u take the distances into account

i suggest you for tournament phurposes either you keep the rule ur using now, or change in the next round really up to you. but i do suggest you try out the rule as intended atleast once, i think you will notice this opens up more options then u might have considdered. no other map uses canals in the pacific, so by having them brings a new flavour to the front, the way you use it makes it more like an impassable passage imo. the right use will be in the middle, defendable to a certen degree but not a definite block.

ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

redrum
Administrator
@all - I've added the images back and cleaned up the game notes. Here is the latest version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_IYMG8ratY0RjBYUGFvZFZMeHc/view?usp=sharing

I'm going to work on getting the canal changes into the engine next but I'm waiting to discuss with Veqryn first.

@ice/Cernel/DizzKneeLand33 - Please review the latest game notes for both clarity and correctness. If you have suggestions or additional changes please let me know. Also if there are other things you'd like to fix/update now this is your chance.

@mapmakers/Frostion/Cernel - I'd like to consider cleaning up the map itself as well. I think a lot of the feedback is around that it isn't clear by looking at the map what islands are connected and there are some random lines that aren't needed as well. I think overall trying to have the map visually (images/colors/etc) look more like NWO would be good (no functional changes). It would be great if someone is willing to make some updates as I'm not skilled in these areas.
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

Cernel
As I said, I truly believe that maps should be handled by people that like and play them; but I'll keep an eye here and say something if I see some major misunderstandings going on hehe...

But 1 thing: Why don't you (I mean ice/epinikion/etc.) do some balancing, while you are at it. There is some vague consensus about the fact that WaW is slightly unbalanced for Allies and a bid of 5 to 10 for Axis is due. I seem to remember that epinikion was oriented for a bid 8 for Axis, but not sure I recall correctly. Of course, in a map like WaW you canna really know, but if there is a tendential guessing about Allies OP I would just suggest dumping a couple german armours somewhere or sumthing.
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
Regarding graphic, I don't like doing it much, but I can do it; but, again, since I've never played this map, not even with AI, and hardly ever looked at it, just tell me (or someone else) all the things you would like to be corrected, exactly and specifically.

Regarding the colours, didn't actually spotted any complains on those, so I'd leave them just as they are. Also, if Seig wanted them more pastel than NWO, that's his decision we can just take (if anyone prefers otherwise, he can do a mapskin himself, changing only the colours, that is very easy).

On the graphic, I would suggest to much limiting the effort and doing only a few most needed or glaring things, if any at all (to me the map seem good enough, graphic wise, but just glanced at it).

Me myself, as long as WaW graphic is concerned, not taking initiatives but likely doing exactly what I'm directed to. Like I would need a full detailing of exactly what lines to remove and what connections to clarify. If someone else wants to do it, I'll be glad to step aside. My preference is hacking; doing graphic work is more of a side thing for me.
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

redrum
Administrator
@Cernel - So I agree that those that play the map and the experts would be the best to update it but we've had no images in the notes for like 2 years so I don't think its gonna happen...

I'm planning to be the organizer on updating many of the most popular maps (specifically those in the A&A tournament) and will probably make a separate thread to track progress as WaW is just the first. The idea is just to fix/clean up/modernize them for the TripleA 1.8 engine. I'm open to making balance changes as well but would need the experts on the maps to chime in.

As for graphics, I think the major thing is lines/connections around islands and everything else is just minor. I'm ok with the colors though it would be nice if some were more distinct but with as many nations as there are that is difficult.

Here is a list of lines/connections that I've noticed:
- Newfoundland - remove unneeded line in sz3 to Newfoundland
- Falkland - remove unneeded line in sz54
- Remove line connecting Gibralter and Tanger
- Remove line connecting Sardinia and Corsica
- Remove line connecting Taranto and Sicily
- Remove line connecting Sicily and Malta
- Remove line connecting Izmir and Cyprus
- Remove line connecting New Britian and Samo (need 2 blue dots as they aren't connected)
- Remove random letters/icons from bottom SZ125
- Line between Samo and Boku should be clear not gray
- Line between S. Guinea and New Britian should be clear not gray
ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

ice
i duno how things work right now, but those lines existed to make the islands connectable. without the lines in the past you yust couldnt move any unit to the island. hope you know about this and have a way around.

about the ballance, imo its really not bad. and maybe as good as its gona get. sure 1 strategy is better then another, but considdering that theres a waw goin on for months now between kesselring and tcurin, round 25-30. and in my experience these 2 players are at the top of skilled players together with a very small group. i would say its really not bad at all.

@ redrum, i duno howmuch work this would be, but i wanna ask if its possible to copy any work you do on waw to waw40, this is my mod of the map, sure not as popular. but doesnt mean it cant profid from the same quality. or is it something i can copy easy once ur done?

ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

Cernel
Correct, currently the only way to be sure a territory will be over another is that the territory underneat ends with "Sea Zone". Scarring the sea zone is exactly how I solved the Baleares no-select bug in NWO, if you can recall.

redrum, pick one of these solutions:

1) Adding an engine property for allowing to superimpose land territories over convoy zones with the current names. I would suggest a settable, in map.properties, end name for the thing to stay underneat, allowing multiples, and having " Zone" as default (then, we would just add all sea zone names in the map.properties reference).

2) Changing all the "SZxx" names to "xx Sea Zone", but keeping the old references in the various txt and properties, for mods and savegames compatibility (still, they won't be able to click on some islands anymore, with old saves and old mods).

3) Keeping the scars. I trust they are all hidden by the relief tiles, right?
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

redrum
Administrator
@ice - I'm aware of the line issue. Though I believe NWO (Baleares) was fixed so I'd probably propose similar solutions here if possible. I'd say let's do all the fixes/clean up on regular WaW first then we can always look to port them over to the 1940 mod.

@Cernel - I'd say whichever you did for NWO would be best though that only really affects the first 2 items on the list I believe. The rest of the items actually shouldn't say remove the line as the line needs to exist to split the sea zones. The line just shouldn't be colored gray as it makes it appear that the islands are connected.

Updated list:
- Newfoundland - remove unneeded line in sz3 to Newfoundland
- Falkland - remove unneeded line in sz54
- Line should be clear not gray between Gibralter and Tanger
- Line should be clear not gray between Sardinia and Corsica
- Line should be clear not gray between Taranto and Sicily
- Line should be clear not gray between Sicily and Malta
- Line should be clear not gray between Izmir and Cyprus
- Line should be clear not gray between Samo and Boku
- Line should be clear not gray between  S. Guinea and New Britian
- Line should be clear not gray between New Britian and Samo and need 2 blue dots as they aren't connected
- Remove random letters/icons from bottom SZ125
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

Frostion
@Redrum and Cernel (post updated/edited)
These problems are the same right?
- Line should be clear not gray between Gibralter and Tanger
- Line should be clear not gray between Sardinia and Corsica
- Line should be clear not gray between Taranto and Sicily
- Line should be clear not gray between Sicily and Malta
- Line should be clear not gray between Izmir and Cyprus
- Line should be clear not gray between Samo and Boku
- Line should be clear not gray between  S. Guinea and New Britian
- Line should be clear not gray between New Britian and Samo and need 2 blue dots as they aren't

The issue is that they all “should be clear not gray” because sea separates the territories and units cannot walk from one territory to the other, like some islands seem to allow and therefore have grey between them? Right? (besides the 2 blue dot thing that needs to be.)

Second question
Why does this map have empty spaces between territories?

Third question
The territories in the bottom of SZ125, what are they there for? I can’t see any special function for them in the xml. Are they there to secure some countries always having a capital? Like if the British, American or Russians lose their real capital, then they can play on? Are they made because of old TripleA versions required the maps to have something that is not needed anymore?

This is the only XML code I can see connected to them:

XML wrote
<territory name="a"/>
<territory name="b"/>
<territory name="c"/>
<territory name="d"/>
<territory name="e"/>
<territory name="f"/> 

<attatchment name="territoryAttatchment" attatchTo="a" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TerritoryAttachment" type="territory">
                        <option name="production" value="0"/>
                        <option name="capital" value="Russians"/>
                   </attatchment>
<attatchment name="territoryAttatchment" attatchTo="b" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TerritoryAttachment" type="territory">
                        <option name="production" value="0"/>
                        <option name="capital" value="Americans"/>
                   </attatchment>
<attatchment name="territoryAttatchment" attatchTo="c" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TerritoryAttachment" type="territory">
                        <option name="production" value="0"/>
                        <option name="capital" value="British"/>
                   </attatchment>
<attatchment name="territoryAttatchment" attatchTo="d" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TerritoryAttachment" type="territory">
                        <option name="production" value="0"/>
                   </attatchment>
<attatchment name="territoryAttatchment" attatchTo="e" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TerritoryAttachment" type="territory">
                        <option name="production" value="0"/>
                   </attatchment>
<attatchment name="territoryAttatchment" attatchTo="f" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TerritoryAttachment" type="territory">
                        <option name="production" value="0"/>
                   </attatchment>

<territoryOwner territory="c" owner="British"/>
<territoryOwner territory="b" owner="Americans"/>
<territoryOwner territory="a" owner="Russians"/>
ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

ice
those are the extra impassable capitals, once a nation is without a capital it will still function because of those, i dont like em, but thats what they do

ice
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Re: WORLD AT WAR

redrum
Administrator
@Frostion - Responses:

1. Exactly. Just need to remove the gray so it doesn't look like the territories are connected by land.

2. Not sure what you mean here.

3. I believe ice is correct. Not sure if there is a better way. I'd just like to hide them if we can't remove.

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Re: WORLD AT WAR

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
No, actually also the line Izmir and Cyprus is not functional to separating sea zones.

So, here it is a correct list:

1- Newfoundland - remove unneeded line in sz3 to Newfoundland
2- Falkland - remove unneeded line in sz54
3- Remove line connecting Izmir and Cyprus

I prefer not touching all these cases, because the line has been drawn over the relief, sadly, thus it is not possible to simple correct it in monocrome.
I could correct it in an almost unnoticeable way, but it would still be a lame way to do it.

4- Line should be clear not gray between Gibralter and Tanger
5- Line should be clear not gray between Sardinia and Corsica
6- Line should be clear not gray between Taranto and Sicily
7- Line should be clear not gray between Sicily and Malta
8- Line should be clear not gray between Samo and Boku
9- Line should be clear not gray between  S. Guinea and New Britian

All these lines are needed and functional to separate sea zones between each other. Here the matter would be that they should be sea-coloured, not having the same colour as the land connections. But, again, the line has been drawn over the relief, sadly, thus it is not possible to simple correct it in monocrome.
I could correct it in an almost unnoticeable way, but it would still be a lame way to do it.

10- Remove line connecting New Britian and Samo (need 2 blue dots as they aren't connected)

Generally speaking, I think you should stop giving priority to the engine/game behaviour over what the image/notes say. I believe the priority should always go the other way round, unless veterans say otherwise.
You should open a poll, in this case. My personal opinion is that this is a case of connection bug; meaning that a land connection between New Britain and Samo is missing and should be added (missing land connections are fairly frequent bugs, would be silly if you correct the map, instead of correcting the bug, each time you find a missing connection).
Also, whatever solutions adding double blue dots here don't think will possibly look nice.

11- Remove random letters/icons from bottom SZ125

Oh LOL. Yes they are not actually random, but they partially exist because in older version of triplea it was not possible to set the ability to produce and collect with all capital lost (you could set those values to no less than 1; now 0 is possible, instead). Now it is possible, so this should be updated and those things removed. As a side note, this hack was only necessary for Russia, since it is the only nation that can collect/produce with no capitals.



So, all summed up, my final suggestions about what to do would be:

For New Britain - Samo (10) adding a land connection between those, because that must be a bug (missing connection). We need some veteran players to confirm that they play as Samo and New Britain are land connected. If they don't, I still suggest that we land connect them, anyway, cause this is a blatant missing connection bug.

For the point 1-3, if you are sure to be wanting to use the hacky solution of leaving the scars and covering them up with the relief tiles, I can do it, but it will be a bit hacky (but almost unnoticeable).

For the point 4-9 make them clear not gray, as you say (a bit hacky but almost unnoticeable).

For the point 11 I can do it, but I will also have to change the xml appropriately.


So, let me know if you agre with anything I detailed in bold, as solutions to all points. Then, I will proceed.

IMPORTANT: Since I would be going to hack the graphic to make it sound, very slightly deteriorating it, you should save (back up) the current baseTiles and the current reliefTiles as image somewhere.

Finally, please take some time to be relatively sure that everything is covered and definitive, because I would much prefer doing all of the map graphic corrections in one go, not having to go back to it a second time. Thanks.



At Frostion:

1A) Yes, except Izmir and Cyprus.
1B) No, the grey is just confusing; you can walk between canals only if connectend with only 1 blue dot. The islands with two dots and grey are not land connected, nor supposed to be.
2) All properly made maps have empty spaces between territories; normally the empty space is 1 pixel wide; here it is more. Personally, I believe that more than 1 pixel wide empty spaces make the map better looking without details.
3) The hacky russian capital only was needed to enforce the rules of collect/produce with no capitals, when (back in the days) the related attachments were not settable at 0. The rest is just ever unneded crap (my guess is that Sieg wanted other nations to work as Russia; then changed his mind but kept the basic hacks there). Now they are all unneeded.

If you want to do the graphic corrections, let me/us know. I will VERY gladly step aside. But I don't want to collaborate: either I do them all or someone else does it.

Waiting for a (hopefully) definitive response.
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