UPDATE to v0.6: Yom Kippur War (Camp David scenarios)

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UPDATE to v0.6: Yom Kippur War (Camp David scenarios)

Bas71
This post was updated on .
Hi all,

I'm working hard on a map with scenario's for the Arab-Israeli wars between 1948 and 1973. It's a tough one. I would really appreciate your feedback. You can find the Yom Kippur War here:

http://www.lemairefilm.com/triplea/CampDavid.zip

Choices and considerations

Israel
I have divided Israel in three 'nations', based on the Israeli military structure. So, there is a Nothern, Central and Southern Command. Israel as one nation only, would make for too little game dynamics.

Jordan
Jordan is neutral. This is only partially accurate. Jordan was in political dispute with Syria before and at the beginning of the war. They only joined in later, by sending (few) troops to support Syria. There was no front between Israel and Jordan. I have tried the map with Jordan as one as the Arab allies - but then invading Jordan is one of the first things you'll do when playing Israel.

Iraq
Iraq was the third major Arab ally. Since the Iraqi troops were send to Syria, I have not added Iraq as a player. The Iraqi troops are added to the Syrian troops (stationed in Daria at the beginning of the game).

Production
Production of each territory is roughly based on the GDP and population density of the respective countries in 1972. The Israeli production is afterwards incrased to simulate the US air bridge. Also Syria's production is increased, to incorporate the Sovjet support.

Territories
The territories in the map are based on actual regions and provinces. Some major regions are split up - for movement realism. The sectors in the Sinai also serve another purpose. Most action of the Yom Kippur War was concentrated on a relatively small strip of land on the east-side of the Suez Canal. These combat areas are too small for this map (2800 x 3500 pixels). The sectors in Sinai are there to simulate the Sinai/Suez maneuvres.

Units
I have removed units that did not play a role. Fleet units are limited to transport ships and destroyers (m-a-d: 2-3-3). I have added the halftrack (should be: APC) as a unit (m-a-d: 2-2-2). Planes are by default stronger to match the power of planes on a 1973 battlefield. Fighter m-a-d: 4-4-4. Fighter-bomber m-a-d: 6-4-2. The number of units at the beginning of the game roughly follow the actual armament of the respective countries in 1973. Some technology is there by default for all players, such as AA Radar and Improved Artilley Support.

Balancing
This one is very tricky. Purely based on numbers and quantity & quality of material, Israel would not have stood a chance. To balance the map, Israel has some technological advantages. 1) Israel has fighter-bombers, the Arabs do not. 2) The fighter-bombers are 'heavy' by default. 3) Israel has paratroopers, the Arabs do not. Also, for balancing purposes, I have decresed the number of Arab aircraft by 25% and increased the number of Israeli aircraft by 20%. Yet, at this moment it's still easier to win when playing Arabas than playing Israeli's. (Creative) suggestions for balancing are more than welcome.

Artwork
Please never mind the misplacement of names on the map. Or units that aren't positioned very nicely within the territories. Or images of units that do not match the actual units used. Fixing the artwork will be the final step for completing this map. However, you will find the flags that can be used for different sceanrios (games), such as US, Sovjet Union, Lebanon, Jordan, United Nations.

Please evaluate and give me feedback!
This is the beginning. I've played the map a couple of times against AI. Some things bug me. Besides balancing issues, there is also something wrong with the 'playability'. Please, give me your feedback and suggestions!
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - not satisfied

Bas71
This post was updated on .
Screenshot:



Some suggestions (made by Veqryn in an other post):
- i think you will find that the middle of sinai could use about half the number of territories
- and same with eastern egypt, since noone got that far
- and i do not quite understand the sea zones, you could get rid of most of them, and definitely make the outer ones bigger and touching more of the coastal ones
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - not satisfied

Pulicat
In reply to this post by Bas71
Have you tried giving Israel extra moves (such as an additional non-combat move prior to combat move) to simulate their efficiency, coordination, and speed? Have you tried playing with National Objectives?
how now brown cow?
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - not satisfied

sieg
In reply to this post by Bas71
hi

maybe show the support of US/UK somehow ;)

greets sieg
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - not satisfied

Bas71
In reply to this post by Pulicat
Thanks, that's an interesting thought.

Any idea how to go about that? I've tried, but I get error messages, related to having 2 non-combat moves for one nation.

In the <gamePlay> section of the XML, it seems as if only one non-combat move <step name="southerncommandNonCombatMove" delegate="move" player="SouthernCommand" display="Non Combat Move"/> is allowed.
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - not satisfied

Pyngo
The map is nice! I like the idea dividing Israel in 3 "commands".

An additional non-combat-move seems to be better in my mind than support by USA. But in which way should this support shown? ;)
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - not satisfied

Bas71
In reply to this post by Bas71
U P D A T E

I've somewhat changed the basics of the map, as a first step to improve playability.

- less seazones to stimulate sea battles and amphibious assaults
- less Sinai territories - there were too many territories for realistic maneuvres
- less territories in western Egypt since they had no added value to gameplay

If you see more improvements, please let me know

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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - not satisfied

alitrader
Bas

Kudos for an interesting map. I played it last night and generally enjoyed it.

Suggestions:

- Since the war involved almost no naval action, perhaps shrinking the western sea zone significantly and adding more countries to the east (like Iraq) which supplied materiel to the Arabs.
- Add neutral troops (like NWO) instead of making it a cost to invade neutral areas
- Create a 3 move vehicle
- Perhaps make Israel larger and Western Egypt a little smaller so the Sinai can be diversified better (not less like you have done). The Sinai was a major location for tank battles.
- Make crossing the Suez involve a "bridge" that requires the territory to the right and left of it (North and South) to be held (Like the sea zones in The Rising Sun) before troops can cross.
- Place a bunker on each Israeli territory at the beginning of game along Suez to represent the sand barriers erected there before the war that the Egyptians had to blast with water in order to breach.

More to follow.
Thanks



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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Bas71
Thanks!

I'm still puzzling how best to incorporate the involvement of Iraq, the US support to Israel and the Sovjet support to Syria.

I'm going to try out your suggestions. Don't know if I understand the bridge concept correctly. To move troops across, both sides to the suez canal must be held. Yet, Egypt holds the west territories, Israel the east ones. How to conquer the other side in the first place, if you cannot move troops across?
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Veqryn
Administrator
support can be in the form of convoy zones

and i also suggest re-working the sea zones
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

alitrader
In reply to this post by Bas71
Bas

If you get a chance, look at the Rising Sun mod and see how the sea zones can only be passed through if you won the territories on each side.

This is a small issue since the inevitability of the Egyptians breaching the Bar Lev Line is a historical fact.

The points can be placed at "crossing over the Suez" points on your map and simply show that in order for the follow through Egyptian forces to attempt the taking of the Sinai, they had to control the far embankment (the Israeli side). A few bunkers represent the light defense that was ultimately breached for a nice touch of realism...

More importantly, should a player's Israeli counterattack succeed they would need to retake said positions before entering Egypt (or simply have an equivalent "crossing point scenario" on the western canal embankment as well.

It is also a historical fact that the Israelis were on the Egyptian side of the canal at the time of the cease fire so take that as you wish.


I would try to get the sea zones down to one or two lanes in the north/south direction. Maybe add Cyprus and have a small U.S. contingent of bombers and/or aircraft to symbolize the support the US gave to Israel.

As for Iraq, you could create a western Iraq that touches a smaller Jordan and SE Syria (as it actually does...) and have some Soviet "advisors" on the ground and some "Pan Arab" forces that can be moved to support Syria.
Jordan should possibly have less zones but have neutral forces that would require some expenditure of blood in order to gain their economic value. This would also open up an interesting Israel vs. Iraq angle too which Saddam was always itching for...

Good Luck with the map

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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Bas71
In reply to this post by Veqryn
@Veqryn

Hi. Regarding re-working the Sea Zones, what did you have in mind? Less Zones? E.g. only one or two lanes (like in alitrader's feedback)?
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Bas71
In reply to this post by alitrader
@alitrader

Thanks. I'm going to expand the map so the westside of Iraq is added and I'll re-work Jordan.

But I'm still not quite sure what you mean by the crossing points. I've checked Rising Sun. I understand canalAttachments and I do get the bunker-idea. For instance, you need to hold all territories east and west from the Suez Canal in order to be able to pass through with ships.

I just want to make sure I also understand your view on how to implement this in the Yom Kippur map. What I'm understanding from your feedback is this.

- create points on the west (2 or 3 points) and east (2 or 3 points) sides of the Suez Canal, only from those points a player is able to cross
- these points can be visualized the way they are in the Rising Sun mod

Yet, if this is indeed what you mean, than there's little difference in gameplay to the current game. Now you can cross the Suez Canal at three points from (only) one territory to another (one "point" to another) also. For instance: you can cross from As Suways (Egypt) to East Suez (Israeli occupied).

That would make your feedback about a visual thing. So I'm gessing you mean something else. Could you please help out?



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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

alitrader
Bas

Nice to see you actively pursuing changes to an interesting map.

I would say just forget the "crossing zones" idea for now and use some bunkers. That is probably sufficient. I think the other changes will be more important.

Adding Iraq is vital and a US "base" in the Med. is probably going to really change the game dynamic and also add more variations.


I'm looking forward to the next update.
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Bas71
Thanks.

I've updated the map to include Iraq. Please see the two territories (with blue labels) in the north-east. Also, I have seriously decreased the number of Sea Zones.



Other changes (not visible on the image)
- Sea Zone 1 (upper north-west territory) will be a convoy zone, to simulate a "US" base. I'm thinking to NOT make it US though, but Israeli.
- Jordan will be part of the Arab alliance. However, there will be no connections (in the XML file) directly between Israeli and Jordan territories. This to "honour" the fact that both nations wanted to prevent a third front. This means that they can only attack eachother through Syria.
- The Lebanon will have neutral troops that have to be fought (so, not just a cost to invade).
- There will be bunkers :)

Suggestions, tips & tricks: please!

Question
Is it possible to let one player be played by AI (by default, cannot be changed). I would much like The Lebanon to be an "active" Neutral. That means:

- in fact it's a third alliance (next to Israeli en Arabs)
- it's always played by AI
- it plays like China in AA50, Lebanese troops cannot cross the border to Israel or Syria, it can only attack troops that have invaded Lebanese territories

Can this be done? And how?
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Veqryn
Administrator
just name it Neutral_Lebanon
anything that beings with "Neutral" becomes auto-ai
(and then copy and paste the stuff from ww2v3...)
and i would suggest giving lebanon only bunkers to start, because who knows what kind of crazy stuff the ai will do (the ai does not know it is under china rules, and will probably decide to move all its troops to one side of its territory, ignoring the other side...)


also...
you turned 25 sea zones into 4.... which might be a bit overboard

what i was considering was this:
2-3 big sea zones (on the outer side, top right-ish)
with like 5-8 smaller coastal sea zones


anyway, its all up to you anyway


the nato/usa did not help militarily, but only with supplies, so a convoy zone or 3 will be appropriate

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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Bas71
thanks!
gonna work on it!

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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War - suggestions anyone?

trouble1
In reply to this post by Bas71
Bas71 wrote

Balancing

This one is very tricky. Purely based on numbers and quantity & quality of material, Israel would not have stood a chance. To balance the map, Israel has some technological advantages. 1) Israel has fighter-bombers, the Arabs do not. 2) The fighter-bombers are 'heavy' by default. 3) Israel has paratroopers, the Arabs do not. Also, for balancing purposes, I have decresed the number of Arab aircraft by 25% and increased the number of Israeli aircraft by 20%. Yet, at this moment it's still easier to win when playing Arabas than playing Israeli's. (Creative) suggestions for balancing are more than welcome.
Keep in mind that numbers of planes in the history book do not represent the actual available planes.

For example during the 6 day war (these numbers are not exact going from memory of something I read 15 years ago), Israel had only about 1/4 the number of planes as its enemies yet flew 4 times as many combined sorties.  The reason being it took Syria average over 10 hours from the time a plane landed before it was ready to fly again.  The maintenance crews were that inefficient in doing fueling and reloading.  Israel on the other hand was average less 10 mins from wheels hitting the ground to wheels off the ground and did maintenance the same way a Nascar pit crew operates.  

So to be historically accurate do you give Israel 1/4 as many planes or 4 times as many planes as its enemies?  
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

Bas71
Thanks

I guess it'll be a case of trial and error until both sides play with equal difficulty. But at least now I won't feel so guilty when I increase the number of Israeli units well above their actual number of units.
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Re: Map in progress: Yom Kippur War

trouble1
You might consider instead of adding more Israeli units simply make the Israeli units better and cheaper.

Reasons:  

1. We don't have any maps in which one side has a technological advantage vs. another side that has a numbers advantage and have such a map might be fun.

2.  It would be much more historically accurate. Israel had less planes.  But could fly more sorties in the same amount of time.  So give them "heavy" fighers and "bombers" that roll 4 or 5 dice to represent that in the same period of battle a single Israeli plane would go on many more missions that the Arab planes.  Also an Israeli infantry troop could move much faster and further in a day than an Arab infantry troop.  So let them move 2 or 3 vs. the arabs only moving one.  The Syrans literally had to chain their troops to their bunkers to avoid having them flee from the battle so give them inf that defends at 1.  The Israelis knew if they lost the war it means complete genicide of their families so give them inf that defends at 3 and is 2 hit.   Israel's air defense is better so give them AA guns that hit on 2 or 3 instead of 1.  

3. The Israeli army is mostly reservists, not full time army.  It cost them to have an infantry division.  So make their infs cost 2 and the Arabs cost 3.  

Instead of balancing the game via numbers.  Do the same way the Israeli's actually do it by having the best troops.  

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