Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hendriks1
This post was updated on .
Hi Rolf, does this mean that all new version from TWW for now will only be purchaseable?

2.5.4 being the last "free" dowload?

I'm ok with that but what changes have been put in 2.5.5, as for 12 dollars, there should be more there then just bug fixes, which should not have been in the product to begin with.

So, an overview of the changes?

Edit, website www.totalworldwar.com does not exist yet.
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hepster
Hi Hendricks,

Yes the idea is basically to create a method by which we can generate some revenue for both the ongoing and future development of the Triple A engine as well as a way for us to generate some revenue to justify the time already spent on developing and enhancing T.W.W.. Not to mention the future work that will (inevitably) need to be done to enhance it further.  Especially true if some further engine changes happen that will allow us to alter some game elements to function as we have always desired.  The point of fact is that developing good games is (or can be) as challenging as making changes to the game engine.  Both jobs require a high level of patience, determination, creativity and skill.  The idea of creating a method to reward individuals for their work is not that much to ask in my opinion.  Personally I feel that game development is equally as critical (if not more in some ways) as engine development.  Without both aspects neither is worth doing.  Look at how many maps we have in our repository that are either half done,  or done poorly.  Why?  Because aside from the pure joy of creating most people don't bother to follow an idea through to completion due to the fact that there is nothing in it for them.  Furthermore it is obvious that even the skilled individuals who have created some of the better maps here have long since abandoned their work.  I can only guess as to why, but I assume part of causal was at least  in-part due to the lack of any kind of reward.  
 

As to your second point.  If I understand you correctly, your objection is that there were bugs present in a game that has been developed that takes the strategic turn based game to an entirely new direction and level?  As one of the two people who developed T.W.W. I personally feel that the game has been a resounding success in terms of the limited number of issues encountered during game-play (in all versions thus far).  I feel that we have demonstrated a high level of commitment to correcting issues that have been identified in a prompt manner.  From my vantage point I think we have managed to create a game with minor issues in comparison to others, especially when you take into account the level of complexity and the lengths we have gone to to limit the number of player enforced rules (or the need for no edits).  And when you say the "product" should have never had them in there,  well to me it is a question of it being a "product" at all... to me a product is something you buy.  Something that is free can hardly be considered a "product" at all, but rather a gift.  Had T.W.W. been a "product" from the start we would have never released it initially at all and spent far more time testing it by ourselves (and generally speaking you'd be paying way more than $12).  I would hardly consider the hundreds of hours we have all had playing the game already as a negative experience.  Furthermore by your measure there are some turned-based board games (and many many other consumer products) that should be refunding all the sales to its customers even after multiple releases (editions) of the same game or product.  Since we are at the point where there are a VERY limited number of issues (balance issues aside)  *all of which have been corrected that we have been made aware of* we felt it was about the right time to look into the prospect of trying to generate a wee little bit of money for ourselves and the community (development).  Additionally you have to consider that fact that this may lead to the development of more games and features.  

At the price of a pack of cigarettes, I'd hardly think there is a high risk of experiencing any "buyers remorse".  

Lastly, yes since we have hammered out all of the changes and alterations we will soon be preparing an overview of the new version as well as a revised game manual with all the changes clearly marked.  All of this will be coming as soon as everything is ready.




“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

Dima
you got to be kidding me 12 $ for a ciggaret pack in Canada/US ?
Why stay and die, when you can retreat and fight a other day when the odds are favorable to you?
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hepster
Nope.  Cigarettes where I live are just shy of $11.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hendriks1
In reply to this post by hepster
Hi Heps, don't get me wrong, I was not trashing the idea, merely the idea of having to pay 12 dollars for every upgrade as some in the past have only fixed bugs and introduced very little to no new features. But some clearly have done that, so my question merely was; would we need to pay for every new version or would be a new release with added new features (like going from 2.0 to 2.1) that can be bought and the follow on versions (like going from 2.1 to 2.1.1) would be for free if you had 2.1 to begin with?

That is the normal way with today's games, you buy a platform level game and bugs are being dealt with by the developpers with free patches.

That was just my question, not wanting to say anything about your obviously great and amazing work so far.

www.totalworldwar.com is not up yet I understand, so we are waiting for the new release but understand it's ready when it's ready :) But a bit more info maybe, will it be 2 weeks, or 4 days? Or..

Thanks again to you both for an awesome game! (and 12 dollars for cigarettes is just crazy, I don't smoke but did in the past and a pack in Holland is now 7 euros, so about 9,23 dollars)
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hepster
Ah,  now I get where you were going with that.

Yes of course "patch" issues would be dealt with as free upgrades.  We would never think of charging people who are supporting our work by charging them for fixes.  This would of course also include any further changes to the existing game as it pertains to balance issues or unit property changes.  So when we release the new version if we still have to tweek things then any re-revisions would then be automatically sent to anyone who has purchased the last version.  We fully intend to support the game until such a time that it is basically perfectly balanced without any wacky unit advantages.

If we do dramatic changes and release a future version that changes the game significantly then we would of course want to take care of our existing loyal players by asking for a smaller donation to be made for the completely new version.  Again no one is looking to plan their retirement from this.  Just a method of creating some ongoing support for a game engine that so many people enjoy.

Yes the new version offers some changes.  However this upcoming version will not contain any huge departures from the current game.  Most of what we have done is to balance and create a few new opportunities in certain areas for either side.  So nothing like any new Minor powers (ie. Exiled Allies).  Again within a couple of days I will be posting the complete list of changes and modifications.  The release shouldn't be more than a week away.

Myself or Rolf will provide more info on the site as we plow through more of the work still to be done.

Yes smoking in Canada (or at least in Ontario) is an expensive proposition.  But since we have Universal Healthcare at least we are safe in knowing our lethal habit is funding the Healthcare system we are sure to need down the road. =)





“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

wc_sumpton
Sorry to hear that hep...

Have you ever thought about Roll-Ur-Owns...  My self-induiced suicide project still only cost about 2 a pack.  Thus I am able to kill myself, my wife and two kids very slowly, while maintaining my budget!

Cheers...
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hepster
lol.  Death on a budget.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

Dima
4,5 $ here, was 1 $ before we enterd the EU
Why stay and die, when you can retreat and fight a other day when the odds are favorable to you?
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

Rolf Larsson
Viva EU!
Before we start considering something like in-game-advertisment of tobacco industry products, lets stop this discussion.

Well, I wasn´t very serious about the fee, I just wanted to start the discussion, but it seems better to start a new thread.

We now have custom dice!
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

Dima
rolf maybe we get some sponsorship from them like this :)
 Back on the subject the ideea of a small fee isnt bad from my point of view cuz you guys earn it even if 12 $ reprezents the price of some other proper games that got some big companys behinde them

PS: Via Russia! its about 0,5 $ a pack ther!
Why stay and die, when you can retreat and fight a other day when the odds are favorable to you?
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Re: Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

zlefin
In reply to this post by L & H Studios
five notes on version 2.5.4:

1. as a russian with logistics, I captured a truck from germany who does not have logistics.  The truck then had one movement available in noncombat; normally stuff that's been captured can't move that turn, but this truck had one movement.  Probably because the tech gave it an extra point of movement.  Is this a bug or feature?


Some things on the in-game notes that should be corrected/clarified:
2.  that other allied air can't go to russian lend-lease without being destroyed needs to be stated in the lend lease section.  Currently it's only stated as one line in the special rules section; it shoudl be reiterated in the lend lease section as well for clarity.

I also dispute a system which allows units to land there even though they'll die; and allows groudn units to freely use it as a straging ground but forbids are.

3.  that marines require coast/docks to be built needs to be added.  currently that's not in the requires section in the table; whereas the requires hill/mountai for alpine is in there.

4.  that heavy tanks are 2-hit is not specified in the table.

another thing:

5.  building research center in minors should be feasible somehow, at least under some circumstances.  I wanted to build a research center in canada, cuz it's a perfect place for a research center, but canada isn't allowed to apparently.  I see no reason why canada should be unable to build a research center to help out the british commonwealth research effort.
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hendriks1
In reply to this post by hepster
Hi Heps, any news on the upcoming new release, it's been over a week now. Not to be annoying but we are sort of like debating to start a new 2.5.4 or wait for 2.5.5, but it would be good to have it this weekend then. If that's not going to happen and it will be next week or even later, please let me know.

Thanks!
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Re: Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

wirkey
In reply to this post by zlefin
zlefin wrote
five notes on version 2.5.4:

1. as a russian with logistics, I captured a truck from germany who does not have logistics.  The truck then had one movement available in noncombat; normally stuff that's been captured can't move that turn, but this truck had one movement.  Probably because the tech gave it an extra point of movement.  Is this a bug or feature?
It used to be a bug but now it is a feature


zlefin wrote
3.  that marines require coast/docks to be built needs to be added.  currently that's not in the requires section in the table; whereas the requires hill/mountai for alpine is in there.
Agree, Marines should only be producable in coastal territories. No need for docks, though.

zlefin wrote
5.  building research center in minors should be feasible somehow, at least under some circumstances.  I wanted to build a research center in canada, cuz it's a perfect place for a research center, but canada isn't allowed to apparently.  I see no reason why canada should be unable to build a research center to help out the british commonwealth research effort.
I think that might get too complicated. Tech tokens are resources and afaik there is currently no (at least no easy) way to give resources from one power to another (and the minors are powers on their own considering resource collection):
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Re: Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

hepster
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by zlefin
Hi zlefin, first off thanks for the input.  Let me address your concerns in the order they appear...

zlefin wrote
five notes on version 2.5.4:

1. as a russian with logistics, I captured a truck from germany who does not have logistics.  The truck then had one movement available in noncombat; normally stuff that's been captured can't move that turn, but this truck had one movement.  Probably because the tech gave it an extra point of movement.  Is this a bug or feature?
As Wirkey said, it was initially a bug.  But most of the regular players seemed to like the feature so it was never re-addressed.  I suppose that if we are to leave it as is then we should add a note to the manual regarding this phenomenon.

zlefin wrote
Some things on the in-game notes that should be corrected/clarified:
2.  that other allied air can't go to russian lend-lease without being destroyed needs to be stated in the lend lease section.  Currently it's only stated as one line in the special rules section; it shoudl be reiterated in the lend lease section as well for clarity.

I also dispute a system which allows units to land there even though they'll die; and allows groudn units to freely use it as a straging ground but forbids are.
Yes because of the way everything was set up it became very difficult to omit the L&L territories as potential landing zones even though any aircraft put there by an Allied power would be destroyed.  As a rule these territories should be ignored as potential landing zones and therefore should eliminate any moves that are only possible because of them.  I shall add a section to the "Lend and Lease" section of the manual about this as well as a to the "Player Enforced Rules" section.


zlefin wrote
3.  that marines require coast/docks to be built needs to be added.  currently that's not in the requires section in the table; whereas the requires hill/mountai for alpine is in there.
Marines only require a Barracks located in a territory that is Coastal or Island terrain to be built.  This is covered in the game manual on page 6.




zlefin wrote
4.  that heavy tanks are 2-hit is not specified in the table.
This is covered in the game manual on page 6.




zlefin wrote
another thing:

5.  building research center in minors should be feasible somehow, at least under some circumstances.  I wanted to build a research center in canada, cuz it's a perfect place for a research center, but canada isn't allowed to apparently.  I see no reason why canada should be unable to build a research center to help out the british commonwealth research effort.
I understand your feelings on this however I'm not sure this will even be feasible.  If it is it might be something we look into, but no promises here.

Lastly all I will say is that I think to eliminate any further confusion we may eliminate the game notes entirely and simply put a notice to people to read the game manual.  The notes section is simply not a good place to try and put all the needed info for a game of this complexity.  Besides,  this is why we made an extensive game manual in the first place.

Once again, thanks for the fresh perspective.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Total World War:December 1941 Version 2.5

hepster
In reply to this post by hendriks1
Hi Hendricks,  Rolf and I are meeting today on the Lobby.  Once I know more about the time line I will re-post here.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

zlefin
In reply to this post by hepster
you really have to put things in the game notes; not the manual.  Some people won't even know how to find the manual;
It's well documented that manuals don't get read much; the further away something is from in-game the less it's read.  A separated manual in a pdf that needs to be hunted for won't get read nearly as much; having it be in-game and directly accessible from the game is VITAL for it to get used.
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Re: Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

hendriks1
Hi Zlefin, sorry but I have to say something here, the manual for TWW is very well and beautifully done just for all of us to enjoy the game, not some thrown together game notes. I have to totally disagree with you here, the manual needs to be printed for the game to be understood correctly. Every game comes with sometimes entire bibles for manuals, I have it next to me when I play the game to see the techs and terrain modifiers. These guys have worked very hard for a very nice color game manual and it can easily be found in the game map as a PDF file, not hidden at all. All the game notes should say in my opinion is; open, download, print and read the manual.

Welcome to the game by the way, hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
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Re: Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

hepster
In reply to this post by zlefin
I'll be honest zlefin,  if someone can't find the where-with-all to follow simple instructions to locate and read a comprehensive game manual that has been created to enable them to understand and play the game...  I probably don't want to bother playing against them.  I spent a great deal of time (with the assistance of people like Odesa and others)  to ensure a professional and comprehensive manual was available.  Spending more time trying to make notes that will not cover the needed info is just not worth it to me.

To my knowledge T.W.W. is the only game on Triple A that has its own manual.  So when you say its well documented, I have no idea what you are referring to.  Personally I have read the rules to every game I have ever played.  If game notes are the only thing available then I have to assume people are reading them.  If our Game notes are a manual,  then people will be forced to read it if they hope to be competitive at the game.  If this limits the player pool for the game I am not all that terribly worried.  I'd rather have a small pool of people who are interested in learning the game and playing, then to have a large pool of people who have no idea how to play and drop games all the time.  Currently T.W.W. is fun because all the people playing have read the manual, have learned the rules and are committed when they start a game because their reputation amongst a select group is on the line every time they rage quit or drop.  

“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Total World War: December 1941 Version 2.5

Zim Xero
Maybe someone with patching power can be enticed into allowing for clickable links in game notes.  This would let players click to open up the manual.
'thats the way it is' makes it neither desireable nor inevitable
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