Seig trio default rules discussion

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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

ice
lol u say it has to be shorter and more clear, and then u provide almost equal large wall of text to replace the original

i agree it must be short, u know this because when u make large text noone will read it, i dont. i still prefer my suggestion or something similar to that size

this will never work if ur gona explain every word. imo rules should be short and clear and if some people read it wrong that doest always mean its written badly

ice
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
Fair enough, then, as I said, just substitute it with this:

Aircraft-Carrier movement follows WW2v2 rules, except only that:
- During Combat Movement, moves of Aircrafts requiring landing on Carriers are legal only if a minimum number of Carriers, required for landing all Aircrafts either:
 - move to the landing zones, during Combat Movement, or
 - will be surely able to move to the landing zones, during Non Combat Movement
 (without entering (from start to finish) any sea zones that was hostile at the start of the turn).

This gives 100% needed info, everything else is just clarifications.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
Yet, I would say that this clarification is almost necessary:

This means that, if using LHTR or v3 Rules, Aircrafts can land on new Carriers, but Aircraft Combat Movement moves requiring landing on new Carriers are illegal.

Otherwise there no really a way people can be sure that putting on LHTR doesn't allow movement requiring landing on new carriers.
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ice
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

ice
simple solution delete the lhtr as option, its a revised written addition. not even sure who added that to nwo, but defenatly not seig

ice
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
In reply to this post by ice
Since this is a deviation from true Revised rules (where the limit is per bomber, not per territory), it should be better explained (because only people that already know what they are talking about can understand this vague explanation):

1e-Territories can only be strategically bombed up to their value. (TTL = Territory Turn Limit)

I've gone ahead and explained this way in WaW:

The maximum total damage per turn per territory from Strategic Bombing Raids is limited to the value of the territory.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

redrum
Administrator
Alright here is my first take at the rules to add:

Rule Clarifications
WW2v2 rules (aka revised) are used as the basis and the following are additional rules and clarifications.
1. Low Luck (LL) - A move illegal using dice is illegal under LL too. A move legal using dice is legal under LL too.
2. Neutrals - Neutral territories and units are hostile and can be attacked but you can't fly over neutral territories.
3. Strategic Bombing - The maximum total damage per turn per territory from strategic bombing raids is limited to the value of the territory.
4. Bunkers - For every territory owned at the start of the turn, a maximum of 1 bunker can be placed and bunkers do not use up factory slots. Territories may have unlimited total bunkers in them.
5. Aircraft-Carrier Combat Move - During combat move, movement of any aircraft requiring landing on carriers is legal only if a minimum number of carriers required for landing all aircrafts either:
- Move to the landing zones during combat move (even if they have no chance of winning the battle).
- Are definitely able to move to the landing zones during non combat move (without moving through any sea zone that was hostile at the start of the turn).
6. Aircraft-Carrier Non Combat Move – During non combat move, if there are any aircraft requiring landing on carriers then moves must be made by carriers and aircraft to maximize the number of aircraft that can safely land.
7. Combat Move Before Purchase Phase – The following are the differences due to the altered phase order:
- Players know about any air losses occurring during combat movement due to AA fly-overs prior to the purchase phase.
- Conquering an enemy capital empty of combat units (combat units are all units but Factory and AAGun) allows spending all captured PUs right away in the same turns purchase phase (it is advised to leave at least one cheap unit behind if abandoning a capital).

Let me know what you think. I want to keep it short and concise while covering everything we feel is necessary. I also don't think it'll ever be perfect but that the above is way better than what we have in NWO currently.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
There are 2 main issues:

1. It is incomplete to say "moving through", because you can't do that also in case the ending sea zone was hostile start turn (this is why I said "enter"); if you want, you can say "enter or moving through", to be clearer, even tho this is not really decent English, because "moving through" is a subset of "entering", thus "enter or moving through" has the same meaning as just "enter" (you always have to enter what you're moving through), thus redundant (like saying "wet water").

2. I highly advice you changing "and the following are additional rules and clarifications" to "with the following rules' changes and clarifications", because there are already too many people around that convince themselves the NWO carrier - fighter rules are the normal rules, and want to play that way in all other games or big maps (without telling before starting the game), which is annoying. In any case, you should make very clear that these rules are special rules that apply to WAW, NWO and TRS only, not to other maps, unless they have the same rules in Notes, as well.

Moreover, I would clarify that during Combat, you can choose casualties and retreat without caring about landing Aircrafts at all (this is a normal rule that applies to all TA games) and maybe put a * beside every rule not supported by the engine, and then write down that they are not supported.

I said it, and I say it again, this rule:
"Conquering an enemy capital empty of combat units (combat units are all units but Factory and AAGun) allows spending all captured PUs right away in the same turns purchase phase (it is advised to leave at least one cheap unit behind if abandoning a capital)."
was, of course, never wanted, but just mandated by the engine's behaviour.
If you (or anyone) are able, I definitively advice you getting rid of this rule, and change the TA engine so to give captured income only during the "Combat", not the "Combat Move" phase. For example, the engine should take away the income during the "Combat Move" phase, but not giving it to the conquering player, but giving it to the Neutral player; then, at the start of the first subsequent "Combat" phase, all income belonging to the Neutral player is given to the relative player.
Or in whatever other ways assuring that putting Combat Move before Purchase does not allow you to use captured income right away, which is obviously dumb nonsense.
This is also relevant for 270BC, in which in the 1.5 I put Combat Move before Purchase to make gameplay easier, but I never intended that to add the rule that you can spend the income on the same turn, which is particularly relevant for capturing the Numidia capital, which is annoying.
A better way would be to have a single phase for both Combat Move and Purchase, working like the current Combat Move phase, but with an additional Purchase button allowing you to do the Purchase at the same time, while you do the combat movements.
In this case, either income should be captured end the phase, not during it (which would still allow you to spend it after having captured it) or you should be limited to spend only what you had at the start of the phase.
This is related to this feature request in github:
http://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/710
and I would say the best moment to do such a thing would be definitively at the same time as the new WAW release (using the new combined phase).

And, also, don't forget to either clarify the LHTR fighter - carrier option, as I said, or remove it.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
Since there are a lot of people around that are dumb as hell, and can't understand a thing unless it is said very directly, I highly advice adding this to point 6:

(if the aircrafts are killed in combat or more landing carriers are disposable due to retreats, the carriers not anymore needed to land any can move wherever)

This is a very recurring issues in the lobby; despite working this same way in all TA games and NWO as well, there are a lot of people that just can't get it, and demand all validating carriers be moved to pick up their dead fighters...
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

redrum
Administrator
Updated:

Rule Clarifications
WW2v2 rules (aka revised) are used as the basis with the following rule changes and clarifications:
1. Low Luck (LL) - A move illegal using dice is illegal under LL too. A move legal using dice is legal under LL too.
2. Neutrals - Neutral territories and units are hostile and can be attacked but you can't fly over neutral territories.
3. Strategic Bombing - The maximum total damage per turn per territory from strategic bombing raids is limited to the value of the territory.
4. Bunkers - For every territory owned at the start of the turn, a maximum of 1 bunker can be placed and bunkers do not use up factory slots. Territories may have unlimited total bunkers in them.
5. Aircraft-Carrier Combat Move - During combat move, movement of any aircraft requiring landing on carriers is legal only if a minimum number of carriers required for landing all aircrafts either:
- Move to the landing zones during combat move (even if they have no chance of winning the battle).
- Are definitely able to move to the landing zones during non combat move (without entering any sea zone that was hostile at the start of the turn).
6. Aircraft-Carrier Non Combat Move – During non combat move, if there are any aircraft requiring landing on carriers then moves must be made by carriers and aircraft to maximize the number of aircraft that can safely land. If any aircraft are killed in combat or other carriers are available due to retreating, the carriers used to validate combat moves that aren’t needed to safely land aircraft can move wherever.
7. Combat Move Before Purchase Phase – The following are the differences due to the altered phase order:
- Players know about any air losses occurring during combat movement due to AA fly-overs prior to the purchase phase.
- Conquering an enemy capital empty of combat units (combat units are all units but Factory and AAGun) allows spending all captured PUs right away in the same turns purchase phase (it is advised to leave at least one cheap unit behind if abandoning a capital).


@Cernel - While I agree it would be better to fix the capital capture during combat move granting PUs immediately this isn't an easy fix and is pretty rarely encountered.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
It should be "any sea zones" not "any sea zone".

Also, I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't really know if people might confuse entering with ending?

Anyway, either of these two would be fine:

"without entering any sea zones that were hostile at the start of the turn"

"without moving through nor ending in any sea zones that were hostile at the start of the turn"

But I'm not sure if "ending in any sea zones" is good, or is there a better way to say that?

Also, since we are still in the Combat Move, maybe "are hostile at the start of the turn" would sound better than "were hostile at the start of the turn", since when it matters everything is still hostile?

Will a NWO Carrier rules property be coded, especially with reference to AI Gameplay (the AI can't read Notes)?

Any thoughts about highlighting everything not supported by the engine, especially for people playing NWO maps with AI (not sure if they are supposed to follow the rules anyway or not)?
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

redrum
Administrator
@Cernel - Good catch. I think entering should be good enough. Having the engine 100% enforce carrier rules properly would be very difficult. The AI plays somewhat conservatively around carrier rules and I don't think I've ever seen it make an illegal move (and I don't believe it ever would).

I'm also going to add a separate brief section called some like "Additional Rules For Alternative Settings" where I'll add some of the clarifications for LHTR, etc. Keeping those separate from the core rules for the default settings I think helps it be easier to digest.

Updated rules:

Rule Clarifications
WW2v2 rules (aka revised) are used as the basis with the following rule changes and clarifications:
1. Low Luck (LL) - A move illegal using dice is illegal under LL too. A move legal using dice is legal under LL too.
2*. Neutrals - Neutral territories and units are hostile and can be attacked but you can't fly over neutral territories.
3. Strategic Bombing - The maximum total damage per turn per territory from strategic bombing raids is limited to the value of the territory.
4. Bunkers - For every territory owned at the start of the turn, a maximum of 1 bunker can be placed and bunkers do not use up factory slots. Territories may have unlimited total bunkers in them.
5*. Aircraft-Carrier Combat Move - During combat move, movement of any aircraft requiring landing on carriers is legal only if a minimum number of carriers required for landing all aircrafts either:
- Move to the landing zones during combat move (even if they have no chance of winning the battle).
- Are definitely able to move to the landing zones during non combat move (without entering any sea zones that are hostile at the start of the turn).
6*. Aircraft-Carrier Non Combat Move – During non combat move, if there are any aircraft requiring landing on carriers then moves must be made by carriers and aircraft to maximize the number of aircraft that can safely land. If any aircraft are killed in combat or other carriers are available due to retreating, the carriers used to validate combat moves that aren’t needed to safely land aircraft can move wherever.
7. Combat Move Before Purchase Phase – The following are the differences due to the altered phase order:
- Players know about any air losses occurring during combat movement due to AA fly-overs prior to the purchase phase.
- Conquering an enemy capital empty of combat units (combat units are all units but Factory and AAGun) allows spending all captured PUs right away in the same turns purchase phase (it is advised to leave at least one cheap unit behind if abandoning a capital).

* Indicates certain rules aren’t entirely enforced by TripleA engine so players must fully enforce them.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
Just remember to specify the exact TripleA engine number (not just saying "by TripleA engine", but rather "by the TripleA x.x.x.x engine" or "by TripleA x.x.x.x") of when you upload the 2.1 in github (or of the next release, if you think so), because it may happen that the engine changes relevantly, and not all maps' Notes are scrutinised and changed accordingly (for example, the old NWO, WaW etc. notes have kept having the "Unloading of Transports from a COMBAT SEAZONE into a friendly territory, PRIOR to combat, is possible, due to a TripleA bug, but considered illegal." for years after this bug has been actually saned in the engine, already...
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
A minor note is that I see you are writing in American English, while I wrote the stuff for the 2.0.x in British English. Seeing American and British English mixed up is a bit unpolished, but nothing important, of course (maximize vs maximise).

Since Sieg was a German, I'm guessing that the German schools are still supposed to teach British English, but I don't know.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

redrum
Administrator
Yeah let's stick with American English since we have ArmoredCar. I updated everything I noticed in the XML to American English now.
ice
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

ice
looks good and short, imo you can even delete that neutrals are hostile in line 2

good job


and no cernel, in germany they use arnold schwarsenegger as example to teach english, its the best


ice
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
Ice, is the Neutral no-flyover rule really necessary for balance or anything?

It's really dumb saying that you can attack a territory, no problems at all, but can't possibly fly over it...

I suggest getting rid of this flyover limit weird rule, if feasible.
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ice
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

ice
I duno, you cannot directly flyover them you must deliberatly move them to the neutral country and then to the next.

but in NWO there is a move called paris2, meaning axis takes paris in round 2. wich is an advantage over round 3 ofcource.

the ballance is that it cost some airunits for germany, AND italy to attack switserland, so they can move there air over it.

deleting this rule might affect nwo's ballance

ice
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
It is not a problem deleting the rule, engine wise, since there is a property for that (no need to do it in 2 steps).

If it is a balance problem only there, could putting an AAGun in Switzerland solve? Anyway up to the NWO etc. players.
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
In reply to this post by Cernel
Cernel wrote
Some of the most absurd unsupported Larry rules that most people play wrongly, in v2, v3 and v5 alike:

5) Can you load 2 units onto a transport and unload only 1 in combat, keeping the other on board? (in revised you can't; in order to unload only one of the two units during combat move, the other must be already loaded in the transport at start turn)

- As a side note, for consistency, then you should also modify the behaviour of AA guns. Meaning that if during Combat Move I'm able to load 1 artillery and 1 infantry onto a transport and unload only the infantry, keeping the artillery on board, then I should also be able to load 1 AAgun and 1 infantry onto a transport and unload only the infantry, keeping the AAgun on board, but the engine won't allow me to do so, because AAgun can't move during Combat Move (by Revised rules nothing that it is not going or escaping combat can move in Combat Move, but TA enforces it only for AAguns, but not for the other things)

6A) When starting in a hostile sea zone, can you go out and into again to create retreat ways for your ships? (in revised you can't, except only if you are going out to load units)

6B) When starting in a hostile sea zone, can you move out and load and unload without doing combat? (in revised you can't)

6C) When starting in a hostile sea zone, can you move out only during combat move, then doing the remaining movements or loading/unloading during non combat move (thus eventually reentering the cleared sea zone you escaped during combat move)? (in revised you can't)
In case it got lost, I want to point this out again.

For example, do you want to allow people to load 2 infantry on a transport and unload only 1 infantry to take an enemy territory, keeping the other one on board? Most people do this, but it is against v2 rules.

As another example, do you want to allow people to move a transport out of a hostile sea zone, load anything and unload it inside a friendly territory? Most people would probably do this, but it is against v2 rules: by correct rules a transport in a hostile sea zone can go out of it and load units and unload them in a hostile territory but it can't go out of the hostile sea zone and load units and unload them in a friendly territory, only in a hostile one!

???

This has already been discussed in the past in this forum, and I think you should decide if you want people to abide to the v2 rules, in the above cases (and in this case I suggest you detail it in Notes, since I believe most people don't know or follow such unsupported rules), or you want them to be able to keep doing what they are already doing (not abiding to such restrictions) (and, in this case, you definitively must detail all the exceptions to the v2 rules in Notes).

Moreover, from an engine standpoint I want to make you notice that it is nonsensical that you can load 2 infantries and unload only 1 in combat, while you can't load 1 infantry and 1 AAgun and unload only the infantry in combat. If you allow people to load 2 infantries and unload only 1 in combat (against v2 rules), then you should update the engine or the map as to allow loading 1 infantry and 1 AAgun and unload only the infantry in combat. They are both just the same rule, but only the AAgun has been implemented in TripleA, because it is the only unit that can never do that (since it can never move during Combat Move), but, by correct v2 rules, also all units not going in combat are forbidden to move during Combat Move (just exactly like the AAGuns), unless they are ships starting in a hostile sea zone, and in this case are only allowed to go out of it and nothing else, if they are not making a combat move (this is why they can unload in hostile, but not in friendly territory).

???

This has been discussed here, already:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Movement-during-CM-and-NCM-tp6989743.html;cid=1469908103061-663

wirkey wrote
I have found found following problem: Not sure if it's an engine bug or just a misimplantation of the rules.
In NWO and other maps you can move units with movement of 2 one space in CM and one in NCM, meaning for examle you can move a transport out of a hostile sz, conduct combat in that zone and in ncm you can move the transport back in, load and unload to another territory.
wirkey wrote
The rules of the revised version of a well-known boardgame say that you can either move your units during combat or non-comabt movement. Being able to move (the same unit) during both prevents the so called sub-stalling.
Veqryn wrote
I still don't get it....


So it is legal to move your transport out of a hostile sea zone,
Then load units,
Then move back in,
Then unload units, BUT only for an amphibious assault, NOT for a non-amphibious assault
Then conduct combat

And that it is illegal to move your transport out of a hostile sea zone,
Then load units,
Then wait til noncombat move
Then move back into the now-cleared sea zone,
Then unload units


The consequences of this rule are the following:
If there is a sea combat required, you can not reinforce friendly territories.  Instead you may only attack with an amphibious assault.

Is my understanding correct?

Seems kind of silly to be honest.  If my guys can storm the beach with bullets in their face, I'm pretty sure they can storm the beach without bullets in their face....
But if it is true, I'm willing to at least try to fix it.

thx,
veqryn
ice wrote
hmm seems like we have been doing it wrong all this time then, although as V saiz its a silly rule.

on this subject my vote goes to staying as it is, even if  its against the official ruleset

ice
Does the NWO players continue to play it wrong?! If they do, you should either make them stop doing that, or you should allow them to do it, by spelling it out in the Notes (as exceptions to the correct v2 ruleset).

NWO etc. players, make up your minds and please clarify!

???

(since all these rules are crap, I believe the engine should keep not supporting them, leaving the knowledgeable players to autolimit themselves in the traditional maps and allowing custom maps not having to follow this nonsense, if the mapmakers want to (if such silly rules will ever get supported, there should be a property for not having them, please))
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Re: Seig trio default rules discussion

Cernel
Here I found a very clear explanation of this limit, not supported by triplea, that I wonder if you want it to apply to NWO too or not:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11880.5

True, but since all subs surface at the end of each turn, the German sub would no longer be submerged when the UK's turn rolled around.  The transport would need to either leave the sea zone or attack (with other units, since it has no attack value).  If the sub were destroyed or submerged again, the transport would still be stuck in the sea zone since it engaged in combat.  Either way, those Canadian troops aren't going anywhere by sea this turn.

The transport could, however, move over to the UK in combat movement and pick up units there for an amphibious assault, assuming the UK still belongs to the UK and there are no other enemy units blocking it from doing so.

...

Attacking subs may submerge after any round of combat.  They will then resurface at the end of their turn.  This will cause restrictions on enemy vessels in the sea zone on their next turn.  Transports won't be able to load in the sea zone, since it is hostile, and all ships will need to either fight or flee, removing any possibility of doing a noncombat movement.  This can be a real strategic advantage under the right circumstances.

Defending subs may also submerge after any round of combat.  Basically, this just keeps them from being destroyed.  Since they remain submerged during that turn's noncombat movement, they don't block the attacker's further movements that turn.  However, they resurface at the end of the turn, forcing the attacker to deal with them again in the same place on the next turn (provided they don't move away).  Of course, if they stay, they must either leave or fight on their next turn (see above).


...

Instead, as said, in TripleA you can do your Non Combat Moves during Combat Move (which is illegal, aside only from simply moving out of a hostile sea zone), like moving out of the hostile sea zone and go load and unload units in friendly territories during Combat Move, and you can also move out during Combat Move, and then keep moving and loading/unloading during Non Combat Move (which is illegal).

Again, I like that these silly rules are not supported, and if they will ever be, there should be a property for not having this nonsense, but I wonder if you want NWO players to follow them or not (since they may not to, as being unsupported restrictions).

I'm also curious if the NWO players actually follow these restrictions or not.
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