Non Integer Pricing

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Non Integer Pricing

grizzly
Has anyone thought of just doubling the value of all terriotories and the cost of all units?

Much easier than rewriting triple a engine

It would make buying a little harder on the mind math wise, but if not being able to buy single aritillery bothers people that much it seems bearable
Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

wirkey
the problem is the production capacity. If the territory values are doubled the production capacity also doubles.
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

subotai
In reply to this post by grizzly
Reminds of a variant we tried _once_ in the 90's sometime, with the good ol Classic A&A. We let Germany start with double of all (original) units, and it was Germany vs the rest of the world. What we didn't foresee, was that Germany would take UK on the first rnd, then Russia on the second rnd. game over  lolz.
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

grizzly
In reply to this post by wirkey
i see. i thought that idea was way too simple to work.

i think that there is a way to change how much a factory can produce though. perhaps a veteran who knows the features can well can answer this.
Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

Veqryn
Administrator
In reply to this post by grizzly
maybe a simple factory rules called:
<option name="produceMultipleOfPU" value="2"/>

can set it to any multiple...

however, then there is the issue with strategic bombing.... which would have to be multiplied too...


i guess in the future, you guys should just try to make units balanced based on integer values

and if a unit is NOT balanced for an integer value, increase something about that unit or decrease something about that unit in order to get it to an integer value

so for example, if artillery should cost 3.5 each for a 2/2/1 supporting unit
then change it to a 3 cost 2/1/1 supporting unit, or a 4 cost 3/2/1 supporting unit

you get the idea,
thanks,
veqryn


ps: i seriously doubt that triplea will ever allow floating point pricing values.  there is just way way too much code to change, and will likely introduce many bugs.  so don't count on it

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Re: Non Integer Pricing

squid_daddy
thats not really an awful plan. if you set a multiplier, that just multiplies PU's in and out.
everything else remains the same.
players would just need to mentally adjust to modified meaning of territory values.
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

grizzly
In reply to this post by Veqryn
For nwo, rising sun, and waw, the maps i created this for,
a bomber could be changed to roll 2 dice but attack on a 2

since low luck is standard this will not affect normal combat but bombing becomes double effective
so if some1 who is good with computers(i am not) could make a mod with

doubled unit costs,
double territory values
a change to the property vegryn mentioned
and slightly adjusted bombers

We may have solved the problem!
Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

Veqryn
Administrator
i still think it is a lot easier to simply balance your units based on integer values

remove 1 defense from artillery and reduce the cost by .5 so that is an integer

or give it 1 more attack or defense, and up the cost by .5

much more simple...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

Bonobo-man
The integer pricing is an unnecessary restriction on unit design, forcing suboptimal unit structures.

Also, units may also be established at a certain price, or with certain stats.

Hard to believe the unit PRICE is really used that much by the engine code. It seems that value is only accessed during the "buy units" dialog, and for TUV calculation. But if you say so, you surely have reason to.

What seems a good intermediate solution is squid_daddy's suggestion:

-a map property, which can be set in the map-xml, and which then simply multiplies the collected income 10-fold during the "collect income" phase.

  That way, map territories dont need to be changed, and there is no hazzle with production restrictions (which may not work under older rulesets).
The only adaptions a map would need would be:
-the property set
-the unit prices raised 10-fold
-a hint in the "Game Notes" to calm down confused players

Seems this can be done with little effort, and very little risk of any unwanted side-effects. And it gives map makers a full extra digit to play with - which should be more than enough.
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

squid_daddy
just to clarify why no one wants to touch this.

firstly the cost of units is referenced directly 33 times in the source, admittedly a lot of these are by the AI.
the problem is bigger than that however as each reference may then have any number
of calls using that data.
not saying the problem is exactly this large. but it is entirely possible that changing int to double
may require 1000 lines of code changes.

also realise that fractional costs require fractional PU data. so everything relating to PU's would have to be modified or verified. (and before anyone suggests it, any type of rounding is impractical as all changes
must be reversable)

speaking for myself, the thought of the possible headache is enough for me to not want to bother.
people are free to attempt it and submit a patch though.
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

Bonobo-man
The AI, of course. Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

This then also means, that the AI should run somewhat poor with the maps that use 2-for-1 pseudo-integer prices, since it calcs with wrong unit prices then, right? (artillery worth 7 on NWO)

Would the income multiplication not fix both issues? Or is this again more complicated than I envision?


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Re: Non Integer Pricing

grizzly
In reply to this post by Veqryn
My goal here was to try and avoid a code change because it appears to be very challenging.

Vegryns idea may work for artillery but not amored cars (also affects the starting set up)

a mod of nwo with the following
-double territory values
-double starting pus
-double unit cost
-bombers attack on a 2 but roll 2 dice
-facories are adjusted using the property earlier mentioned to produce half units

will solve our problem. b29s will be terrible at bombing but that minor detail can fixed later.
i will try to do this but i have never used the mod before so anyone else is welcome to beat me to it :)
Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

squid_daddy
i've hacked together a simple patch.

multiplies PU gains, and the stats panel production display.

however before committing i just want to be sure all costs are settable.
as far as i'm aware strat bombing PU lose is the only cost that isn't controlled by the map?
unitcosts, tech and neutral charges are all settable yes?
is there anything else i'm missed?
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

grizzly
i dont think so lets see what you have.

iv created a mod that works so far. the only problem is factory deployment...
ideas gentlemen?

i feel like there already is a property our there becuz i could have sworn a played a mod where bships and carriers took two production to create. it may have just been on the board however...

also a bonus use of double values is we can adjust territory values to what would have been a decimal b4
ex. making canary islands still worth 1 with all values doubled. equivalent to worth .5 in the original. could be used to make a territory worth a half step more or less
Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

grizzly
In reply to this post by grizzly
hey while working on doubling values after a couple runs a fighter randomly appeared everywhre there was an early fighter
also i am now getting error message i didnt a few minutes before and all i changed was adding heavy bombers as standard to all nations
Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by squid_daddy
yes squid, the only thing that affects PU's that is not settable inside the xml is Stragic Bombing.

also, if you are multiplying PU gains, you will have to deal with both strat bombing rules: both ww2v2 revised bombing, and ww2v3 aa50 bombing

ww2v2 subtracts directly from the enemy's PUs

ww2v3 does damage to a factory

so to work for ww2v3, you will have to allow factories to take more damage as well.

so if you have a factory in germany (worth 10 normally), that means 10 damage til you can't produce, and 10 damage after that (i'll call it over-damage for now).

so any multiple will have to apply to the damage-til-you-can't-produce, and also to the over-damage, and will have to apply to both equally


honestly, i still think this is not a great idea and would much prefer people just balance their units based on integer prices.  
if you make a unit that isn't balanced based on an integer value, then you are not very good at balancing/making units
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

squid_daddy
ok cool i'll put the patch up.
there is no need to worry about production capacity damage. it doesn't need to be modified at all.
all i've done is mulitplied PU gains, mapmaker multiplies all PU costs.
strat bombing, since it isn't map controlled will be also multiplied.
only other change is the stats panel changed to reflect the multiplied PU gain.

so there are no fractions involved.
if you want an artillery worth 3.5, you set it to 7 and set the multiplier to 2.
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
doesn't the damage capacity of factories have to be multiplied too?

if you have a german factory on a territory worth 10,

and you set the multiplier for 10x

Then you are making 10x more money (100 in that territory alone), AND strategic bombing now does 10x damage (so minimum damage is 10, max is 60, average is 35),
yet the max damage you can take in that factory is still 20....
So if i roll anything bigger than a 2 during my strat bombing, i've already hit the max on the damage my factory can take (and any extra damage gets discarded)....


edit:
also remembered that blockades may have to be multiplied to, depending on how you do this...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

grizzly
In reply to this post by Veqryn
New world order used decimal prices, so to say that someone sucks at balancing units is a pretty big insult to sieg and alot of other players. Lets solve problems, not insult each other.

Im very close to solving this problem, at least for nwo, trs, and waw. i just need a property that allows a unit to require multiple production spaces to be placed.

this would be useful in other instances as well.
ex. on a new map a battleship might take 2 spots instead of just 1, to represent that it is a larger ship.

i feel like this property might already exist but it is not in the list of available choices on the map modifier.
since i could not write code to save my life, is it possilbe someone who can create this property or point it out to me?
Just my 2 cents...
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Re: Non Integer Pricing

squid_daddy
In reply to this post by Veqryn
@veq
SBRAP is ignored.
for PU loss, if the damage cap is 20, then you roll your 4 bombers, get 4 sixes = 24 loss
capped to 20 or whatever as usual
20*2 = 40 loss (with a multiplier of 2) which is correct.
capping at 20 would halve the effectiveness of bombing.

@grizzly pretty sure no such property exists.
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