NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

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NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Dan Slayer
Hi!

We are building our own NWO-Mod. (Thanx for all 3a-developers and NWO-Team! :) ) But we have now one problem - we want to integrate IPC-seazones (for subhunting, like in Board Game A&A Europe). So we need an original NWO-Map with borders (to integate new sea zones). I could not generate this map with the map-creator, because i get only the map without borders and can not paste the polygon file nowhere. I've asked for the map SIEG, but he/she have lost this map. HAS ANYONE this original map? please send me this! :) or can i download this map somewhere? i couldnot find link in forum etc... :(

thx! :)

Anyone, who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield, will think hard before starting a war.

Otto von Bismarck
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

OnanTheBrBr
Wew, if sieg does not have it, I doubt anyone else has. :(
Good luck.
On the other hand, I doubt that it adds enough strategically to be worth the effort. Subs are not likely to live past round 2, maybe 3 anyways, and even with income-seazones would still be used best either retreating towards europe (via sz9), or used to kill allied transports in round 1. Basically, income seazones would only add income to the allies for all rounds except 1 and 2, maybe 3.

This might change if you would place your version under aa50 rules, making subs more durable (since they there can not be killed by air). This, however would need the whole map to be rebalanced.

What makes NWO so attractive and successful at the moment is the very fine balance it achieved. It is easily disturbed without noticing it immediately, since the current map offers so many options (check the NWO1.7EB thread for a list of possible openings).

Regards,
EB
For Downloads, Help, Maps and Links, visit Bommel's TripleA Supply Depot
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Dan Slayer
EB, thank you for quickly answer! :) and excuse me for my bad english... :)

so, i have to generate a new NWO-map - o my god! ^^ this is a wohderful map (with some geographic errors, which we have adjusted :) )

i know this wroten possibilities for sub action in first rounds - but right for this we would like make the income-seazones to have more possibilities for axis fleet. and the ipc-points should be from normaly land ipc-points (less land-points -> income seazones).  so the axis can decide, to lose the atalntic subs for allies transports or to stole income through the incomeseazones. and we want to place this incomezones so, the fighters cannot attack subs. and bombers cannot attack navy (our rules).

may be you have to know, that we have own rules, much more units and have new-ballanced the map completely - better, we ballance still now, its not so easy! ;)

we find this "many options" by NWO SO GOOD and try to make this much better! :)

our mod is still under developement, but if you want and if you understand german (for reading rules) i can send you our mod... :) we translate the rules after we are ready with the mod... ;) and how you see, i cannot translate this... :D

best regards
DS
Anyone, who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield, will think hard before starting a war.

Otto von Bismarck
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

OnanTheBrBr
Hey, Deutsch ist prima :)

Fein, dass Ihr die Karte mögt. Prost auf sieg, mit dem hat es angefangen.
Aber volkommen korrekt: Ausbalancieren dauert ewig.

Ich mag die Idee mit den Seezonen. Klar, kann man einfach US Einkommen für nehmen, dann sollte es vernüftig einzurichten sein. Nicht dran gedacht, gut!

Wenn das mal in eine zukünftige NWO version einfliessen sollte (auch wenn 1.7 erstmal auf absehbare Zeit stabil bleiben soll, so dass man wieder nen Turnier spielen kann), müsste man allerdings sicherlich die aa50 - errm WW2v3 - Regeln zupassen, damit man mit so wenig extra-Regeln wie möglich auskommt. Die sind nämlich eine enorme Popularitätsbremse. Bin allerdings nicht komplett Fan der aa50 Regeln. Vor allem die verwundbaren, aber billigen Transporter würden komplettes neu-Ausbalancieren von 3 der wichtigsten Schauplätze erfordern
1) Leningrad/Finnland/Ostseeflotte
2) Östliches Mittelmeer (Navy UK vs Navy Italien)
3) Die Amis, da ihre Landungsflotte mit Wegfall der Transporter enorm geschwächt wird.

Insgesamt wird Luftwaffe enorm aufgewertet - eigentlich kontraproduktiv, da die eh schon stark ist.

Aber alles noch im machbaren Rahmen.

Viel Erfolg auf jeden, und ich freu mich, wenn Ihr mich auf der Höhe haltet. Vielleicht wird ja noch eine richtig offizielle Karte draus, irgendwann. Am einfachsten erreicht Ihr mich übers Supply Depot.

Prost,
EB
For Downloads, Help, Maps and Links, visit Bommel's TripleA Supply Depot
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

ComradeKev
Administrator
OnanTheBrBr wrote
Prost
THAT part I understood!  Just wanted to give a quick update to you EB.  I've checked in the NWO 1.7 EB into the triplea baseline for the next release.  It's replacing the previous versions completely.
If emailing me at ComradeKev at yahoo.com , please add TripleA to the subject line
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Dan Slayer
In reply to this post by OnanTheBrBr
pfff... VIEL EINFACHER! :) :D

also, wie gesagt, wir haben schon so einiges an zeit an dem spiel verloren... ;) und natürlich ist ballancing für uns das a und o. wir sind aber der meinung, dass ohne zusätzlichen regelpaket das spiel.. wie soll ich sagen... zu einfach ist! ;) daher haben wir nen klunker an regeln rangehangen... :D daher glaub ich auch nicht, dass unsere version je populär werden sollte... wir machen es eher für uns und noch ein paar verrückte! ;) sind eben strategiefreaks... ^^ daher wollen wir auch noch extra seezonen einfügen... da das spiel eh schon ganz anders geworden ist, obwohl auf NWO basiert...

sicherlich würde die einführung der income-seezonen einiges an ballancing-arbeit mit sich bringen. aber es hat jetzt wenig sinn, auf die aa50 regeln oder einheitenwerte einzugehen, da bei uns so einiges sich verändert hat. falls du, oder jemand anders lust hast/hat, dann hier reinschauen:

http://rapidshare.com/files/319096698/New_World_Order_HR.rar

der stand ist noch wie gesagt in bearbeitung und sollte nicht als endversion angesehen werden... aber durchaus spielbar, mit sehr vielen optionen... ;) ist für 1.0.3.4 version geschrieben. wie man das auf die neue bringt, hab ich erst heut gelesen, aber noch nicht gemacht...

ehh... und nicht übel nehmen, dass wir mal was "geklaut" haben - alles nur spass! :)

PS: nur um mal denn rapidshare download bisschen anzuregen hier einige stichwörter zum unseren regelpaket:
-strategische einheitenverlegung
-lendlease
-invasionsregelung
-einkesselung
-beschränkung der luftwaffe
-...etc...
-so um die 10 neue einheiten...


PS2: erst jetzt hab ich (durchs klicken und analysieren) begriffen, was EB heisst... Ernie Bommel und dein depot... darüber sollen wir dich erreichen... aha... ok... (die seite ist bei mir schon in den links ;) ) nun hab ich HIER schon alles geschrieben... hoffe, det iss ok... :)

ach ja DANKE und GRUSS!!! :)

and excuse me all for german!

PROST
Anyone, who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield, will think hard before starting a war.

Otto von Bismarck
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Karl-591-2
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Dan Slayer
which 3a-version have you? we have 1.0.3.4. may be therefore?
Anyone, who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield, will think hard before starting a war.

Otto von Bismarck
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

OnanTheBrBr
Hooray, Kev! Thx. I appreciate this a lot.

@Dan and @Karl
I had a look at your version. To make it work under 1.1.1.0, 2 (simple) things have to be done:
1. All occurrences of "IPC" have to be replaced by "PU" (simple Search/Replace)
2. All unit pictures in the "units" folder have to be named EXACTLY as they are named in the xml (thus case sensitive - gross/klein Buchstaben)

For some strange reason, the Mech.Inf.png and the Mot.Inf.png are named invalid as Mech.Inf__png, respectively Mot.Inf__png in the zip file you provide for all nations. They have to be renamed to Mech.Inf.png and Mot.Inf.png, of course.

Good version you guys made there. I was skeptical, but you made some good house rules there, and also wrote good documentation on them. Some stuff may need balancing - income raise of the US by 5 PU per round is pretty huge. Probably well done in historical terms, but not question is if you want a map simulating the - almost nonexistant - chances of the axis to win after the US entered the war.
The heavy use of EDIT will probably restrict this version to a small circle of fans of complex house rules. But well done, well done.
And good work on the territory names.

Regards,
EB
For Downloads, Help, Maps and Links, visit Bommel's TripleA Supply Depot
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Dan Slayer
thx EB! :) I'm happy, you like the stuff! :)

1. ok, i have read this, but don't made the "update". thx for tip!
2. hmm... I have called all units exactly as in xml... i had copy and paste all names... so i don't understand, which units are false named... ^^ the exactly name is Mot.Inf..png and Mech.Inf..png (with 2 dots) because they calls in game "Mot.Inf." and "Mech.Inf." I don't understand, where you have seen Mech.Inf__png and Mot.Inf__png - probably is it an packerror? which zip-file means you? (for all nations?!) I have control all png-files in units-folder and they called accurate...  

Yeah, thats right! We have made those hellish progression of american income because the axis should try to win this game as soon as possible. otherwise americans comes and crash the Reich... :) And the strategy of russians should be to survive till this moment... :) this game is not a rush game (invasion rules make rushing inpossible ;) ), but the axis have not much time...

Sure we have to ballance this mod probably better... :) we try it now with 2 other friends.

so, thank you again for good review!

PS: and what you say about Stukas and StrafBats? :D   
Anyone, who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield, will think hard before starting a war.

Otto von Bismarck
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

OnanTheBrBr
Stukas are cool, I had a similar plan (think the post got lost when 2/3rd of the old NWO post disappeared). Straf-Bats are damn cheap hitpoint, probably the best buy of the game (which may mean they are overpowered). Infantry is already actually cheaper then I would consider optimal - they would better be at 2.5 PU each. I once tried to implement this, creating 2 inf for 5 PU. To retain the old map balance, I introduced 1/1/1@2PU "conscripts". But 2-for-1 is bugged, and I do not know actually if it got fixed. It uses to mess up the "casualty picker", since the engine assumes the FULL price for ONE unit, thus in the above case, losing an artillery would be preferred suggested instead of losing an inf. This can be annoying, since it has to be changed by hand then every time casualties have to be selected. For Tankette/Scout/Späher, this is acceptable, since their numbers are limited. For Inf, it was not. Also, it messes up TUV, of course, for the same reasons.
Furthermore, more land units mean more icons in territories with mixed forces, as smallman pointed out. And some places are already badly cluttered.

Thats why in total, I removed the conscript again. Less is sometimes more. The Stuka is pretty cool though, since "isArt" is attachable to air (navy too, by the way), so it is almost made for a tactical ground support plane. Main reason I did not include it was, that by that time, I felt NWO had enough units, and people got used to the existing ones. Could have removed the earlyFtr, since it is one of the most redundant units of the map, together with the elite. But first, people tend to miss on the somewhat hidden "isArt" feature, when they dont expect it, and secondly, it does not add that much to the game. I wanted to limit the maps starting complexity, to avoid having a too steep learning curve in the beginning.
But this is nothing you have to worry about with your map, since it aims at a smaller niche of players. So it is a cool unit then.

Last thought though is: The main cool sideeffect of having the Stuka is, that it makes fighters less effective against ships. This is pretty cool, since it limits air units versatility somewhat. But you do not take advantage of this feature, limiting air attacks on navy artificially with a set of additional rules, as well as limiting total airforce sizes. I believe this not to be an elegant approach. It produces rule overhead. Better balance air units more against navy, price-wise, so that you can skip on the limits naturally then.

But only my 2 cents. I really liked your Kessel rules. Might lead to Russia easily being able to stop Germany cold, but thats a detail that can be balanced. Rules are cool, if one doesnt mind heavy editing.
The rules about remains of attacked neutrals siding with the other side makes the game of course a completely different one in many places, since former standard attacks become feasible. Surely will work, and gives some nice "realism" feeling, but of course also means that the affected theaters of war have to be designed completely new to make for exciting dynamics there.

As said, cool mod, thumbs up.


EDIT:

About the Mech.Inf..png: I checked, and it is indeed an unzipping error of the (widespread) Alzip, causing them to be erroneously renamed into Mech.Inf_png. Winrar did it correctly. Since this may happen to others too, I would recommend changing the name to something that avoids the duplicate ".".
For Downloads, Help, Maps and Links, visit Bommel's TripleA Supply Depot
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

xrayman
In reply to this post by Dan Slayer
I made this post on Nov 3...

"This a map I created that is based on NWO.  It has a few more territories as well as some other changes compared the original NWO.  I tried unsuccessfully using map creator to create a full working mod based on this map.  I finally had to give up but think the map will make an interesting and challenging variant of the stalwart original NWO map (thanks sieg).

There are 2 files, 1 is the working map and the other is the map that has proposed territory names.

http://rapidshare.com/files/297990750/NWOx.png.html

http://rapidshare.com/files/297991515/NWOx_names.png.htm

I hope someone takes a look at this and is able to create a working game."



I hope you try using this map for your new version of NWO.  Feel free to make any adjustments with borders and country names.

here are the links to the maps again:

http://rapidshare.com/files/320065472/NWOx.png.html

http://rapidshare.com/files/320066471/NWOx.text.png.html

 
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

OnanTheBrBr
hey xray, they already have a version running. (see their link above).
Btw, it runs well under tripleA 1.1.1.0, once the IPC->PU change is done. But game notes are in German, as a warning.

And yes, your map looking really good. With the added territories, I would recommend a completely new approach on unit design though, with a focus on movement. Map will play out too slow otherwise, I believe. Either lower the faster units in price, or - even more radical, - up all the movement, starting with inf at movement 2. Even naval units would need movement to be redesigned, since 3 rounds for US transports is definitely too long, since it gives the axis all options to outmaneuver the US via purchases otherwise, and also is too demanding concerning long term planning, to ever develop a player base. NWO is already at the limit there, I believe. But with faster units, it might work. And again, its really nicely done. Pretty cool to have some of the odd territories corrected. Old atlantic seazones were a bit more exciting in the assymetric way they been before though, I think. If I ever consider remaking NWO, I would start off with you map (and a few changes maybe). Its just that being very large AND needing a new unit design might be too much new things for the standard A&A player to try it. And were there is no beginners, there is no players.


Of course, this needs a completely new balancing cycle then.

EB
For Downloads, Help, Maps and Links, visit Bommel's TripleA Supply Depot
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Dan Slayer
@ xray: CRAZY MAPS!!! :) but i think too, the range from usa to europe or afrika is too far. for this map you need naval units with standard movement range of 3 or maybe 4!

question: the naval connection under afrika - why you remove this by second map?

@EB: what you mean with balancing cycle? how much games play you for balancing? how many people are doing this?
Anyone, who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield, will think hard before starting a war.

Otto von Bismarck
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

OnanTheBrBr
About the balancing, I will answer with a part of NWO history: ;)

The NWO map has been out for quite some time, and evolved in versions step by step. First approaches featured only 5 players, for example. At a certain time, the 9 player version became the one most popular, and a rather successful 9-player version 1.4 was released. 1.4 is what I started with. By that time there was a lively community of frequent NWO players, and they quickly found out that 1.4 had weak points. For example, there were no bunkers in Leningrad, making a 6 transport buy with Germany in G1 for taking Leningrad in G2 so much of a standard move, that some players refused to play against it. Also the US came too slow into the game, so in the end, 2 veteran players (krustyshorts and corsair) came up with an unofficial 1.5 version, with some rather high default bids for the allies built in, and the 2 Leningrad bunkers added (which nicely balance the baltic theater, leaving the G2 take an option, but a suboptimal one for Germany).
The bid though was considered a crude solution by some, and also, 2 ingenious players (odessa and Ready) came up with an elegant and complex way to make Paris fall in round 2 (known as G2 Paris since). This happened almost HALF A YEAR after the map was out in a form that would have allowed for it. G2 Paris proved to be so powerful that in turn, some players again refused to play against it. By that time, the number of NWO custom versions exploded, with almost daily releases of new maps with different fixes and units added. For example, the Tankette (Scout/Späher) was once priced at 3 PU, making it the unit of choice, superior in efficiency to the tank in almost any situation, resulting in Tankettes being SPAMMED all over the map.
This version mania was ended when Gneis and me agreed on a joined version, resulting in NWO1.6EB+Gneis. It tweaked various units, added the bunker, made the cruiser transport 1 unit, balanced the G2 Paris, without crippling it (!!), gave the US extra units instead of a bid, and added numerous little tweaks all over the map, according to all the community feedback that had been collected by that time from the numerous games played. 1.6EB+Gneis was so successful that sieg simply took it over 1-to-1 and released it as the official NWO 1.6 version.
After numerous games played, it showed that the map still had a couple of bugs, from territories being named definitely  wrong (east and west mixed up. Count out the questionable names), to some fine tuning needed in various places. This resulted in NWO1.61EB, fixing all these issues and also making new, water tight game rules (since the engine allows for some disputable moves).
The changes leading to the current standard, NWO1.7EB can be found in its game notes.

In total, this balancing thus went over more than a year and probably involved feedback from about 15 skilled veterans, based on a few hundred games played.

The company manufacturing Starcraft knows that balancing takes the longest time in the development process, asking the most resources. Think they are damn right ;P

Regards,
EB
For Downloads, Help, Maps and Links, visit Bommel's TripleA Supply Depot
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Dan Slayer
NWOblank.png

original map with borders

this is a recreation of it anyway, using white for all the nations and not displaying units, setting display territory names as false, making a transparent PU, then exporting a screenshot...


Please contribute to the TripleA 2013 donation drive:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/2013-TripleA-Donation-Drive-tp7583455.html
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Re: NWO Map - searchin for original map with borders

Dan Slayer
thank you, veqryn! :)

but i have allready install convoi zones manually... ;)

so... i'm too stupid... i could make this myself! still make all nations white and remove all units... ARGGGG :)
Anyone, who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield, will think hard before starting a war.

Otto von Bismarck