Movement during CM and NCM

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Movement during CM and NCM

wirkey
I have found found following problem: Not sure if it's an engine bug or just a misimplantation of the rules.
In NWO and other maps you can move units with movement of 2 one space in CM and one in NCM, meaning for examle you can move a transport out of a hostile sz, conduct combat in that zone and in ncm you can move the transport back in, load and unload to another territory.

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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

Veqryn
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doesn't sounds like a bug to me... sounds perfectly legal
triplea allows non-combat related movement during combat move, and thats not something that i want to change....

how exactly is the above example illegal?

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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

wirkey
The rules of the revised version of a well-known boardgame say that you can either move your units during combat or non-comabt movement. Being able to move (the same unit) during both prevents the so called sub-stalling.

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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

Veqryn
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and what do LHTR rules say?

and what do aa50 rules say?

and what do 1940 rules say?
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

Pulicat
In reply to this post by wirkey
What is sub-stalling?

My opinion is that it's not only legal but instrumental to many tactics and maps (for example Civil War uses 2 combat moves per turn)

puli
how now brown cow?
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

wirkey
In reply to this post by Veqryn
all rules and especially the rules clarification say that it's actually illegal to make noncombat moves during combat movement. I don't have any problems with that, i just don't like that you can move a unit both during combat AND non-combat movement.

Sub-Stalling is a tactic invented for revised, especially for Germany. If UK has a fleet in the Baltic and want to reforce troops in Norway/Karelia/Eastern Poland  Germany places a sub in that zone. Now UK has to either move out or fight. If they fight the transports can't load any troops, if you leave that zone you can't reinforce because you are not allowed to move troops in cm and ncm. Making an amphibious assault from the Baltic would be perfectly legal, of course.

Edit: Veqryn, please don't see this as an insult, I really appreciate your work. If you do not want to change anything, i'm fine with that. I just noticed it and wanted to get clarification if this was intended or not. I don't have any problems if we use different rules than Rev or 50 or 40.

 Unloading of Transports from a COMBAT SEAZONE into a friendly territory, PRIOR to combat, is possible, due to a TripleA bug, but considered illegal.
This is from the game notes of The Rising Sun and World at War
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

Veqryn
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i don't see it as an insult.  I intend to fix any and all bugs that make the game illegal.

the reason I want to know what AA50 rules say, and 1940 rules say, is because IF i figure out a way to code a fix, I want to make sure it only applies to those maps that require it according to the rulebooks

so, I can make all ww2v2 (revised) maps follow this rule, and all aa50 maps not follow the thing

or I can add a new game option that defaults to work this way, which pulicat can then turn off for his maps, etc.


would you be able to research all the different A&A versions, to see if they all agree on this point?
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ice
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

ice
good question, never thought of it but looks like i used it all the time aswel, therefor i donloaded the revised rulebook and found the rule that makes it officialy legal:

PHASE 3:
COMBAT MOVE
Exception: During this phase,you may move any of your units out of spaces containing enemy units that were there at the start of your turn. (This normally occurs only in sea zones.) Doing so allows you to end the units’ combat move in a space that doesn’t contain enemy units. Units that remain in spaces containing enemy units will initiate combat in the next phase.

you can find it here:
http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/axis2004.pdf
page 11

hope this settles the issue

ice

ps the rule in trs and waw was writen a little poor, he pointed to an old bug where transports could unload to an island, and when the tranny died due to combat the units stayed there. the lines can be deleted now since no such bug exist nomore
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

wirkey
This post was updated on .
ice wrote

PHASE 3:
COMBAT MOVE
Exception: During this phase,you may move any of your units out of spaces containing enemy units that were there at the start of your turn. (This normally occurs only in sea zones.) Doing so allows you to end the units’ combat move in a space that doesn’t contain enemy units. Units that remain in spaces containing enemy units will initiate combat in the next phase.
of course you can move those units out of the hostile zone. You are just not allowed to move them again during NCM:

From the same rules:

PHASE 3:
COMBAT MOVE
In this phase, you may move as many of your units into as many hostile
territories and sea zones as you wish. To do this, move your attacking
units into the desired spaces on the game board; these may be occupied
(contain enemy combat units) or enemy-controlled but unoccupied. You
must make a combat move to enter an unoccupied hostile space. Attacking
units can come from different spaces to attack a single hostile space,
as long as each can reach it with a legal move.

PHASE 5:
NONCOMBAT MOVE
In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn.
I'm pretty sure this counts for all A&A games, but i will check that

Edit: just checked classic  (http://daak.de/regeln/deu/axis.pdf, pages 7 and 8) and anniversary (http://daak.de/regeln/eng/AA50.pdf, page 8); it pretty much says the same.
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

wirkey
from LHTR


At the beginning of the combat move phase you may already have sea units in spaces containing
enemy units that were there at the start of your turn.
This situation will require you to do one of the following:
 Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat;
 Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere;
 Leave the sea zone to load units and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat;
 Or, simply leave the sea zone and conduct no combat other than sailing out of harm's way.
Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat they may not move or participate
in the noncombat move phase of the turn. You may not load units while in the original contested
sea zone.
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

Veqryn
Administrator
I still don't get it....


So it is legal to move your transport out of a hostile sea zone,
Then load units,
Then move back in,
Then unload units, BUT only for an amphibious assault, NOT for a non-amphibious assault
Then conduct combat

And that it is illegal to move your transport out of a hostile sea zone,
Then load units,
Then wait til noncombat move
Then move back into the now-cleared sea zone,
Then unload units


The consequences of this rule are the following:
If there is a sea combat required, you can not reinforce friendly territories.  Instead you may only attack with an amphibious assault.

Is my understanding correct?

Seems kind of silly to be honest.  If my guys can storm the beach with bullets in their face, I'm pretty sure they can storm the beach without bullets in their face....
But if it is true, I'm willing to at least try to fix it.

thx,
veqryn
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

wirkey
correct

I too think it's silly, but nobody asked me about the rules :-)

Veqryn wrote
So it is legal to move your transport out of a hostile sea zone,
Then load units,
Then move back in,
Then unload units, BUT only for an amphibious assault, NOT for a non-amphibious assault
Then conduct combat
My intension wasn't against that rule in first place, but against the one allowing you to move both during cm and ncm.
I've got no clue about coding but from me this looks easier to code then the above.
ice
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

ice
hmm seems like we have been doing it wrong all this time then, although as V saiz its a silly rule.

on this subject my vote goes to staying as it is, even if  its against the official ruleset

ice
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Re: Movement during CM and NCM

hepster
I'd have to agree with V & Ice.  I'm not sure changing the game to accommodate a silly rule just because its there makes any sense at all.  
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