Maps Packaged With TripleA

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
127 messages Options
1234 ... 7
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Maps Packaged With TripleA

redrum
Administrator
I'd like to discuss which maps people would like to see packaged with the initial TripleA download. I'd like to move to a single installer instead of one without and with extra maps (everyone pretty much always downloaded the extra maps one). I think we should look to package the most popular maps though also consider size as well (some maps are rather large and aren't good candidates to be included think TWW, etc).

I may eventually change this into a poll but to start let's just have a discussion.

Here is my list:
270BC
Big World
LOTR
Napoleonic Empires
NWO
Pact of Steel
TRS
WaW
WW2 classic
WW2 revised
WW2 v3
WW2 v5
WW2 Global
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

aaalafayette
Administrator
What's the criteria for a good list?

My thoughts:
- minimizing DL size
- reducing map DLs that people *have* to do. For this,  I would look to download counts,  which are the top 80%?


Here is a spreadsheet with map sizes (all maps listed here, but only size count, not also download count): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1El7WlyWl1LSGsCLTadtoxBDcaIPesmNRcKZTrGgz4go/edit?usp=sharing


Here is a spreadhseet with sourceforge data (has sizes and download counts, but the maps bundled with the game are not listed here, since they are already installed):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ngflKXUbV3C8oUCLq6TWuvDHGqVrXYb6BV-ldUgdPQ0/edit?usp=sharing


Looking at download sizes I would remove anything over 15MB
World at War - 45MB
Napoleonic Empire - 24MB
The rising Sun (TRS) - 25MB
World War II Global - 51MB
world_war_ii_v3 - 22MB   (revised is slightly more popular than v3)
World War II Global - 25.9 MB
Middle Earth (LOTR) - 16MB

That's 185MB less worth of maps taken off of the game download.

Remaining:
270BC - 6.4MB
Big World - 8.7MB
NWO - 11MB
Pact of Steel - 3.2MB
revised - 11MB
WW2 v5 - 15MB
WW2 classic - 9.6MB


55 MB worth of map data in that list. Does seem short..  And still 55MB for only 7 maps.. I think there is some work to do to make our maps smaller.

Perhaps it's also worth keeping in mind that next release should see some good updates to the map download. Namely the downloads will be quick and you'll know the progress, it hopefully won't feel like murder anymore to use the in-game download.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
I advise against having tRS preloaded, as that map is the perfect example of how not to draw a map, imo, mostly because there is really no way to see connections.

WaW might be ok only after the updates are done. TRS is too bad, instead, on that regard, and I believe can't be meaningfully saned (also because many inconsistencies can be just connection bugs, and you have no way to know it).

So, I would say NWO and the correctet WaW can be preloaded, if you want to, and leave tRS out in the depot (and imo not in high quality).

tRS is not popular (differently from the very popular NWO and WaW), anyway.
History plays dice
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

Cernel
In reply to this post by aaalafayette
Yah, WaW is a difficult call, because after the changes it will be a little over 50 MB, but I believe it should be worth having it, despite the weight. It's the kind of map that will make TA looks professional and awesome to noobs opening it for the first time.

The napoleonic empire in its 1v1 version is an unpopular map, rarely played in lobby at least, but I would advise keeping it, because I believe it is the best (read least worst) FFA TripleA has, aside from Domination 1901, that is is a much different concept, not really comparable, and about the best FFA as well (if you like it), beside Napo.

In general, TA sucks as a matter of good FFA. Most are not really good, for one reason or another, imo.

Going back to the 1v1, it is apparently kept in high regard (also considered very well balanced) by a few peeps like Pug.

If you want to cut NE anywhere, I would suggest making the current standard visually bad graphic into a downloadable-from-depot mapskin, and turning the current "political" mapskin into the base map. I can tell you like 80% people prefer the political over the original skin, and I think only 10% prefer the original over the political.

In my opinion, the bad original skin of NE significantly drives people away from that map.

If you refuse to turn the "political" into the main skin, then I would say keeping the "political" preloaded, as well (like it is now), is a must, cause almost noone downloads mapskins, and the original one is awful.

When I say bad, I mean from a play-the-map perspective, and from my personal and, I believe, most people perspective. If, instead of playing the map, you want just to stare at it in awe, then the original mapskin (by LSSHA) is not bad at all, but rather truly a masterpiece of art.

When I tell people about the "political" (almost noone knows that mapskins exist at all) the response is 80% on these lines:

History plays dice
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
And, of course, the WW2 serie is composed by Classic, Revised, v3, v4, v5 and v6. There's no point to jump.

Maybe better leaving all those out of the preloaded tho, since they are not really TA originals.

Anyway, either all of them or none.
History plays dice
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

redrum
Administrator
In reply to this post by Cernel
@aaalafayette - Yeah, I think the 2 main criteria are popularity (this already ensures decent quality) and size. I think for this first pass 25MB is probably a better ceiling then 15MB and 7 maps seems a little too few to me at this point. I think we want a decent list of say 10-12 maps and we want every map on that list to be there for a reason.

The sizes in your 2 spreadsheets don't line up? I think the second one is correct.

I also just realized that the maps from the main code base aren't zipped... This means they end up taking up more room on every user's computer after the install...

@Cernel - Good point on TRS. Yeah, the Napoleonic default skin makes me sad and most I've seen that know that map play on the political skin. We'd have to talk to Veqryn to see what his thoughts are around swapping them. Is it pretty much just swapping the reliefTiles folders between the 2? Or are there other things that need done? Obviously, we'd have to rename the skin as well.

Not sure on the WW2 maps. My thought is to actually only include v1-v3 and global as those I believe are the most popular ones which leaves v4-v6 out.

@all - My proposed list with sizes (all zipped):
270BC - 6.4MB
Big World - 7.4MB
LOTR - 14.2MB
Napoleonic Empires - 22.8MB
NWO - 8.7MB
Pact of Steel - 1.7MB
WaW - 43MB
WW2 v1 (classic) - 3.8MB
WW2 v2 (revised) - 4.8MB
WW2 v3 - 9MB
WW2 Global - 24.7MB

So WaW is the only one in the list over 25MB and unfortunately I don't think there is an easy way to make it much smaller since the majority of the size is in the relief tiles.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

Cernel
Almost sure, in this particular case, just swapping the reliefTiles would do it (of course, change the name of the mapskin to Physical, for making sense).

Also, I see that inside the "Napoleonic_Empire" folder there is some documentation, like a "politicstext" in excel. So I suggest to do it by swapping the reliefTiles folder and renaming Political to Physical.

Generally, doing it the proper/safe way, to make the Napoleonic Empires map into a mapskin do this:

- Change the folder name from:
Napoleonic_Empire
to
Napoleonic_Empire-Physical_Map_Skin
.

- Delete the "games" folder inside the main folder.

done.

To make the political mapskin into the main map do this:

- Change the folder name from:
Napoleonic_Empire-Political_Map_Skin
to
Napoleonic_Empire
.

- Add the "games" folder from the old "Napoleonic_Empire" inside the new "Napoleonic_Empire".

done.

All this is perfectly savegame/mod safe. But if you do this way, also copy paste the follwing stuff in the new default skin:
NapoleonicEmpires_baseTiles.png
politicstext.xlsx

I also suggest changing the name from "Napoleonic_Empire" to "Napoleonic_Empires", as this is a typo. Tho this needs changing the property name="mapName" in the xml, and will break savegames, but doesn't matter, really. NE is not WaW, very few people play it (afaik) and they can accept not being able to cont if told.

So, maybe ask Veqryn if he's receptive over damaging savegames for correcting an old typo users don't see anyway.

NE could use some finetuning and refining here and there, as well, but nothing major (aside maybe from Austria and Prussia units being too similar), and anyway doesn't matter here, and I've no short term plans to do it.
History plays dice
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
Fyi, since that GTO thing, v4 is surely more popular than v5.
History plays dice
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

aaalafayette
Administrator
In reply to this post by redrum
100MB for 11maps is not very good either. Every player downloading this data repeatedly even when they do not play the map is not a good trade off. What exactly is the value?

For this question, we *should* actually look to the lobby. New players will be frustrated with the game if every game they try to play or observe on the lobby crashes for them. If they are frustrated with how few maps there are, the 'download' additional maps feature is pretty prominent and they can find that.

Otherwise, why do we even have a download maps feature? Part of it was legal, but the *reason* is so we can trim the size of the game download. With 100MB of map data, our DL will be close to 400MB, at that point, why not just include almost all the maps and let people download it all at once?


The lobby list is also pretty short:
Chess
Cold war
270BC
Atari
NWO
WaW
WWII Global
WWII Revised


Frankly, add WW2 maps, remove Chess and WaW and that to me looks like a pretty decent list. I would keep global because it is very popular.
 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

aaalafayette
Administrator
Some discussion on the lobby between Red, myself, Ice, and Cernel, the following minimum list seems to be pretty agreeable:
v1-v3, global, pact of steel, NWO, Big world, tutorial, 270BC

Still a bit up for debate:
v4-v5
LOTR
Napolean



WaW I think concensus is to drop it because it is very large @ almost 45MB.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

Cernel
I believe a strong point (beside having a decent diplomacy FFA in list) in favour of Napoleon is that it gives more historical coverage to TA and fits nicely in between of 270BC and the rest. Plus you get one 1v1 map and two FFA at the price of one.

Moreover, TA ruleset is fairly good at handling Napoleonic strategy (better than 270BC, where ships should have combat powers depending on the cargo), differently from other crazy things like lotr, where your nazguls can't possibly land in new conquered land because they need airports...
History plays dice
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

crazy_german
In reply to this post by redrum
I might be wrong about this, and perhaps someone else knows for sure, but I think there was a reason that v2 wasn't included in the download (since it makes so much sense to include it). Something regarding the previous legal trouble that the A&A clones faced? Again I don't know so just make sure someone double checks

I would like to see LOTR go, its a niche map with an art style that is very different from the others included. v4/v5 could be left out because there is value in a shorter map list. If napoleon gets included I suggest the alternate map skin become the default
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

ubernaut
In reply to this post by redrum
did great war get renamed or are we just considering it a given?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

aaalafayette
Administrator
ubernaut wrote
did great war get renamed or are we just considering it a given?
Do you know which map zip it came with? I'm having trouble finding it in the SVN maps.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

redrum
Administrator
Great War is in the code repo as its part of the current base install.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

ubernaut
just making sure ;)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

redrum
Administrator
@ubernaut - That is only where its at currently. It is most likely on the chopping block of maps not to be included in the base download anymore. The main reason is it doesn't seem to be that popular these days. Pretty much never see lobby games and I don't see hardly any PBF games either.

@all- Here is the most recent list of maps to be packaged:
270BC - 6.4MB
Big World - 7.4MB
NWO - 8.7MB
Pact of Steel - 1.7MB
tutorial - ?
WW2 v1 (classic) - 3.8MB
WW2 v2 (revised) - 4.8MB
WW2 v3 - 9MB
WW2 Global - 24.7MB

Still up for debate:
LOTR - 14.2MB
Napoleonic Empires - 22.8MB
WW2 v4
WW2 v5
WW2 v6

Currently packaged but probably will be removed from base install:
Capture the Flag
Great War
LOTR skin
Napoleonic skin (hoping to switch the default first)
Minimap
WW2 Europe
WW2 Pacific
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

ubernaut
well, i think i would try to lobby for it as long as theres no other WWI game out there as many flaws as it has it is a great game. would you mind listing the files sizes for the items on the chopping block?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

Cernel
In reply to this post by redrum
My definitive suggestions to keep are in bold:

270BC - 6.4MB
Big World - 7.4MB
NWO - 8.7MB
Pact of Steel - 1.7MB
tutorial - ?
WW2 v1 (classic) - 3.8MB
WW2 v2 (revised) - 4.8MB
WW2 v3 - 9MB
WW2 Global - 24.7MB

Still up for debate:
LOTR - 14.2MB
Napoleonic Empires - 22.8MB
WW2 v4
WW2 v5
WW2 v6

Currently packaged but probably will be removed from base install:
Capture the Flag 
Great War
LOTR skin
Napoleonic skin (hoping to switch the default first)
Minimap 
WW2 Europe
WW2 Pacific

With the following two suggestions:
1) If NE won't have a skin, then the current political should be the main map (rename the other to Physical, not terrain, as that would pertain to a skin showing up territory effects).
2) If you want to include any WW2 at all, then you should include all of them except Europe and Pacific.

I believe it is good having 1 very basic example of 1v1 (minimap) and 1 very basic example of FFA (capture the flag). Probably a polished up version of Hexglobe would be better for the basic FFA (the current one is not good for preload).

And yes, it is sad not having 1 map preloaded covering WW1, but Great War is a weird outdated map that uses stuff in a way not anymore needed, for many years. Plus the current TA engine is very bad at handling WW1 strategy, as there is no other way to transport air but with carriers, and aircrafts can be used in naval battles and taken as casualties, that it is ridiculously overrepresenting the very marginal role of them in sea warfare during WW1 (you can even sink fleets with aircrafts only, which is absolutely ridiculous). Better not representing WW1, than representing it in a terrible way.

I believe the first step for doing a sensible WW1 map would be that some developer update the engine as to allow shipping aircrafts (producing them in America and shipping them to Europe) and to allow aircrafts not being selectable as casualties from normal ship's fire during naval battles.

The tutorial should be upped only if absolutely perfectly fine tuned (a tutorial should not have issues for sure); so up to the developers to deeply test it. Meaning if it is not perfectly refined yet, better to wait the next release.
History plays dice
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Maps Packaged With TripleA

ubernaut
i think calling great war a terrible representation of WWI is overstating things a bit and the game engine is pretty decent when it comes to most of strategy in the game maybe not great when it comes to naval stuff sure. How much "bloat" is great war adding to the download?
1234 ... 7