Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

Frostion
@Alkexr
Yes, I know that my territory effects on units are very simple,  maybe too simple. Also, my effects are nearly all negative with -1. You could maybe think about t having each territory type give 1 unit type + and another unig type -. And it could be for both defender and attacker to keep it simple. Just an idea.
ice
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

ice
@Alkexr

wel to me this looks like a player vs AI project, 2 hit units- 3 hit units and probably most extras rules beyond original aaa are very rarely played in player vs player (in the lobby). therefor my suggestions would be way too extreem and not at all helping you creating ur vision. my vision for this map would be mych closer to the smaller LOTR map, with some exeptions and yust a few extras.

a simple example is total ancient war from zim zero to rome total war from me. doesnt mean 1 or the other is better simply a totaly different vieuw on things. still amazing job and keep it up!

ice
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

Goatenstein
In reply to this post by alkexr
I think I have discovered a bug. I was playing as Gondor and every other player was the easy AI. The high elves and the northmen would not spend any money to buy anything. I noticed this after a few rounds and went into edit mode to add extra units to them since they were getting killed. They haven't used any of the extra units that I've given them.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

amanntai
In reply to this post by alkexr
Hello!

First of all, Let me say I love this map. Easily my favorite non-A&A map so far. The unit mechanics are great, leading to really working to diversify buys. I also like the detail that went into making this map fit the LotR canon.

There, are however, a few problems I've encountered:
1) As mentioned earlier, war in Eriador is just not interesting. Angmar does not put up a decent fight against the combined Dwarf, Freefolk, and Arnor units, and pretty quickly ends with a surrounded Carn Dum in the games I've played. Of course, I've only played with AI rather than actual other players, so maybe this would change with a competent Angmar player, but I don't see how Angmar can prevail against superior numbers.

-My suggested fix, (and I'm working on a mod for this, actually) replaces Arnor (which, in canon, no longer existed as a nation by the time of the War of the Ring) with a "Dunedain" faction. This new Faction does not have control of Fornost (which was abandoned by the time of the War in the Ring, although in the War in the North videogame Angmar occupies it briefly), and cannot produce knights or catapults, the latter of which makes it very difficult to besiege Carn Dum or a captured Fornost. I've also removed the ability of Freefolk to purchase rangers, instead giving them swordsman and spearman, and gave the "Dunedain" faction the ability to purchase rangers. Other territory changes are not yet final, but I've been trying to make it so that the Dunedain can somewhat defend the Freefolk lands from Angmar but cannot defeat Angmar without a lot of help. This reflects the actual role of the Dunedain in the War of the ring, as the frontier guardians of Bree and the Shire, but not a military force capable of bringing down nations.

2) Gondor starts with too many units. After some initial troubles, it seems that even with AI in control of Gondor (and the AI is pretty bad at playing Gondor, in my opinion) Gondor can start pushing Mordor back as their units arrive from the central territories of Gondor to the front lines. Such a thing was certainly not possible in the Lord of the Rings, as Mordor was supposed to have a vastly superior force.

3) I don' know if this is an issue with the map itself, or the AI, but for some reason High Elves, Lorien and the Woodland Realm never do anything. They just sit there and die, and in the case of the High Elves, occasionally send out an Eagle to attack. Sometimes they don't even buy units, sometimes they do buy units but they only stack on their capital. All in all, the elves get destroyed when the AI play them. Every other nation I've seen AI play can at least muster up attack forces to take lightly defended enemy territories, but not the Elves.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

alkexr
Hi!

Yeah, various odd things start happening if you play against any AI other than the Hard AI. Try playing against that, i guess balance will be somewhat better, and there will be no idle/useless players. (Or at least i hope you are taking about other AIs, as your description fits their behaviour.) Even so, beware your AI allies, if you have any, since e.g. High Elves often lose their capital by mistake because they send the bulk of their forces hunting for rabbits in the neighbouring wilderness.

I originally planned a game about the War of the Ring, but as the name suggests that isn't what i implemented. One of the reasons was that Eriador was even more empty than it is now. (By the end of the Third Age there was no Angmar or Arnor). This is a fictional conflict, with factions that never coexisted. The map itself, however, is canon, so that the option to create a (canon) War of the Ring mod is left open.

Feel free to modify anything you think improves the game. I also considered the problem of Eriador, but then i ended up with the idea that Arnor + Freefolk, Dale + Northmen and Lorien + Woodland Realm could be merged without being historically too inaccurate but still decreasing the number of small players surrounded by too many allies and too few enemies. Maybe i will create a mod, >if i will have enogh freetime<. In other words, i would want to do it, but probably i won't.

As for your mod, i don't think the Dunedain would be capable of any effective resistance against a faction as mighty as Angmar was in its time (it could sweep through Eriador with ease without an Arnor to stop it). I don't know how strong the non-canon Angmar is in that video game you half base your mod on, though.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

Goatenstein
In reply to this post by alkexr
One thing has been nagging me with this map. Why is there no navy implemented? There are naval units in the unit folders and there are sea zones set up, but there is no navies to start with and no faction can buy naval units. Is this on purpose? I think this would add a whole new dynamic to the game if it was implemented, especially between Gondor and Harad.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

alkexr
It was a long time ago when I did this, but if I remember correctly, there should be a game option called "Sea Units". Set it to true, and there you go.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

lordbevan
Your version 1.1.1 does not start in triplea 1.9.
Instead i can play 1.0 well, not sure where i got that map though.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

lordbevan
I have played version 1.0 a few times in TripleA 1.9, (your 1.1.1 in old tripleA the AI was too slow for my patience)

It seems evil is too strong, so i started a new game with no national objectives. I let the AI battle it out, and evil still wins with a big handicap.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

alkexr
Yep, i'm aware of this problem for a while. In the next month or so probably i'll have the time to figure out how map uploading works and what went wrong. Also i want to convert it to 1.9 if it hasn't happened already.

I haven't actively done anything to this map for what feels like years, but as far as i remember i kept buffing evil, because they were always too weak. On the other hand, i played a game on another map against the new AI, and i got rekt badly. So i can imagine that the new AI is more capable of using evil's massive tactical advantage than me, compensating for inferior numbers. I don't expect to have a lot of time to balance this map, but i will definitely have a look at what i can do.

Sidenote: use Hard AI, if you are not already using it. Other AIs' performance is not relevant to balance. (They have serious issues handling map rules.)
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

lordbevan
Yes i let the Hard AI battle it out to test a new map. The TripleA 1.9 has Hard AI which is very fast. This allows me to test several maps before i decide to play it seriously.

A few questions:
1)I assume battle calculator works and take into account the terrain effects. This is because the terrain effects are too difficult to remember.

2)Elves have no forts or whatever. This makes them easiest to kill. Evil strategy is very simple, attack settlements that have no forts first.

3)Can explain how catapults work? Do they fire first?

4)National Objectives are one sided!!!Why???
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

alkexr
1. Yes. You can actually choose manually which kind of territory effects you want to simulate, there should be a list around the lower left.

2. Easy to kill? Go ahead. Just note that elven archers defend at roughly 12 in places like Caras Galadhon or Rivendell, because of territory effects. Also, evil units attack at a reduced efficiency because of territory effects. Elven settlements are actually quite easy to hold against superior numbers.
(That being said, in the next version, if there will be one, Rivendell is going to get some defensive mechanism.)

3. It's all documented in game notes. They fight just like normal units do, but they also get a bonus attack against fortifications.

4. Good - 10 players, 300 initial production, Evil - 7 players, 180 initial production.

So you think evil is easy? Beat Hard AI for me, then.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

lordbevan
In a game with no national objectives, Hard AI just conquered Rohan and Gondor. Though, the good side still have more troops and income and will win in the future.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

redrum
Administrator
Glad to hear the 1.9 Hard AI performing well on the map. If you have any specific AI feedback or questions always feel free to leave it in the AI discussion thread.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

lordbevan
In reply to this post by alkexr
Speaking of the AI, walls should be at least 20 PUs and Towers 40 PUs. This is to let the AI know that killing walls is a strategic move and worth losing some units.
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Re: Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars

alkexr
Development of version 1.2 has started.
https://github.com/alkexr/large_middle_earth/tree/version-1.2
I'm planning to release it very soon. It is still subject to changes, so feel free to share your opinion about it.

Changes so far:
Upgraded to 1.9
Changes to starting situation (Osgiliath, West Gondor, elven capitals)
Some new objectives
Other minor changes

And most notably, removed confusion about versioning.
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