This post was updated on .
Download version 1.1 in-game now!(Click Download Maps and look under Good Quality. Requires TripleA 1.9)
Greyhawk Wars is an immersive strategy game based on the World of Greyhawk, the classic setting of Dungeons & Dragons. Inspired by an out-of-print tabletop wargame and built on the TripleA engine, Greyhawk Wars offers world-spanning conflict, diverse factions, and flexible opportunities for conquest and diplomacy. Central to the game are the individual personalities who lead each faction, recruiting mercenaries and seeking magical artifacts to tilt the balance of power in their favor.The following posts provide:
This post was updated on .
In 2008 I tried to create a Greyhawk game using TripleA. The result (old forum post) was playable, but only a feeble glimpse of what I had envisioned. I came back recently and discovered that with the advancements made in the engine and some more elbow grease I could come much closer to my original goals.
Excerpted Game Notes
Remember to read the full game notes to avoid surprises.
Greyhawk Wars centers around each faction's leader and hero units, which recruit new armies, lead them in battle, hire mercenaries, and seek magical artifacts. There are ten factions, split into three alliances. Each faction has unique advantages and national objectives. (Alternatively, by enabling Politics a free-for-all game can be played.)
EventsJust as no plan survives contact with the enemy, no strategy can disregard the caprice of chance. Beginning in the second round, each faction may experience random events. These can have positive or negative effects, and they can be natural, like floods; or military, like rebellions; or political, like unforeseen allies that unlock new unit types.
Note: Two-hit units cannot be repaired, with the exception of Furyondy’s unique ability.
+1 to attack and defense. Can blitz those terrain types. (All units can blitz normal terrain.) Also, land units suffer -1 attack in amphibious assaults (-2 for cavalry).
Cavalry get one free attack at the start of battle. If a fortification is present, defending cavalry still receive a free attack, but attacking cavalry do not.
A faction loses one PU for every enemy galley or brigantine in sea zones that border their territories.
Bowmen cannot participate in normal combat but can kill dragons, similar to giants.
*Leader and hero abilities:
DiplomacyIn addition to politics between the factions (if enabled), each faction can also exercise diplomatic options, attempting to bring neutral nations under their control through persuasion rather than violence. The chance for success depends on the cultural and historical inclinations of the neutral nation. Attempts at diplomacy cost PUs. If successful, you gain control of the neutral territories and receive a number of units typical to that nation.
Magical TreasureLeaders and heroes can go questing for magical treasure in certain territories. These artifacts can be extremely powerful, but cannot be obtained without a fight, so a hero should not attempt this without the aid of supporting units. Even well-protected, there is always a small chance the hero (or leader) may fail and be slain in the attempt. These territories are ungovernable and new monsters will spawn every round. Magical treasure can vary by faction.
MercenariesLeaders and heroes in designated territories have a chance at recruiting mercenaries. These units are immediately placed, and the type of unit varies by faction and territory. Leaders and heroes cannot raise regular armies and recruit mercenaries in the same territory.
VictoryVictory conditions are based on victory cities. Additionally, an alliance or faction can claim victory if all others are vanquished.
This post was updated on .
These are my goals for Greyhawk Wars, and some of the ways I’ve tried to accomplish them. I do not think every TripleA game or map should be like this.Make the game as user-friendly as possible.
There are too many to list, but it’s illustrative to consider that the xml for the old Greyhawk game, currently available on the repository, is 3,600 lines, and the new xml is over 32,000. Scrambling, paratroopers, terrain, user actions, variable chances, abstracted AA . . . it really is amazing how far TripleA has progressed, and how much more robust these advancements have allowed Greyhawk to become.
Keep the game AI-compatible.
This post was updated on .
Outstanding issuesResolved (1) AI
Thanks to redrum's patient explanations (link), I've been able to remedy the main incompatibilities between Greyhawk and the Hard AI. Greyhawk now plays, and the Hard AI can be a worthy opponent. Its two main deficiencies are that it doesn't realize the Scarlet Brotherhood is on a virtual island, nor will it transport heroes on ships.
Stalled (2) Scrambling dragons
I would like to rename the aARadar tech to something more appropriate. But I don’t know how to do this and still have the modified radar graphics come into play. Likewise paratroopers.
Resolved (4) Leaders getting six movement Update: Many thanks to redrum who figured this out for me (link).
I’ve sometimes observed leaders getting six movement. At one point this was intended. Now it should be four.
Resolved (5) “Loops not allowed in”
This is no longer an issue because the Medium AI has been retired. Occasionally, the Medium AI suffers a game-ending crash with a “Loops not allowed in m_routes” IllegalArgumentException. It always involves an amphibious assault, with the second territory mentioned in the error report sometimes being adjacent and inland. Turning off scrambling prevents it.Further discussion.
(6) "But mommy I don't want to be a paratrooper"
The engine sometimes assumes heroes are riding on dragons when they aren't. This leads to a few bizarre situations. More detail.
Excerpted ChangelogVersion 1.1
@panguitch - So there are definitely a few features that you are using that aren't supported by the AI.
1. The AI considers any unit that can produce units, can't move during combat move, and isInfra as a 'factory'. It will defend these and use them to produce units such as classic factories or generals in Napoleonic. If you change your leaders to have these properties you'll probably have better results with the AI.
2. I'm not sure what the exact rules are around scrambling so not sure if that is a bug or not.
3. Not sure.
4. I'd need to see a save game with the incorrect movement.
5. Does the error occur with the 'Hard AI' as well? If so then I'll look into it.
Thanks redrum. This is helpful.
1. This makes sense. Leaders and heroes can produce units and are infrastructure. But to be able to perform many of their functions they must move during combat move. The hard AI uses them to produce units just fine. It's the protection part where they apparently don't qualify.
Just wondering, but what would be the ramifications if the hard AI didn't have the "can't move during combat" expectation? I'm trying to think of any maps where that expectation is necessary to prevent suboptimal behavior. Maps with units that produce other units, are infrastructure, and can move during combat, but shouldn't be protected.
5. I'll see if I can reproduce the error with hard AI, and will post it if I can. While the error text is mostly greek to me, I do notice that it mentions the StrongAI, and I was wondering if maybe there are elements shared by the different AIs, or if this might suggest any relevance to your AI?
@panguitch - Responses:
1. So the issue really boils down to the AI not being able to handle units that both have combat value and unit production value. Since combat move tends to come before non-combat move, if the unit can move in combat move then it will use it for attacks. What you may want to try for now is making them "can't move during combat" and just having them as providing defense support. So that they are only used for defending and producing.
5. Yeah, if the error text shows "strongAI" then it is the medium AI and if it shows "proAI" then it is the hard AI. They originally shared lots of code but are now completely separate.
Question: How did you make it so a player loses if it doesn't have any leaders/heroes left? Is it just all triggers?
This post was updated on .
1. So the AI would need to check for production value before using a unit in an attack (using an inverter or NOT operator?), and then be more conservative with that unit. But you making that happen for the benefit of just this map is not something a reasonable person could ask, given the other priorities and wider audience on your plate.
So... sadness. Part of the intention for the game was to provide a new strategic context, one where you have to decide whether to risk leaders and heroes by using them to lead attacks. I would truly hate to lose this aspect of the game by making them more like traditional factories.
Moreover, some of their functions are entirely dependent on their moving during combat move. For instance, you can only move into or out of magical treasure territories during the combat move phase, because there are respawning neutral units there that you have to fight to earn the magical treasure.
I'll keep trying to see a way around this--since every time I play with the hard AI reminds me of how suboptimal the medium is--but the active participation of leaders and heroes is a central concept for the game design.
4. Leaders moving 6: When I've noticed this before it's been when a leader I was controlling got 6 movement. But in playing around with the hard AI today I noticed an AI-controlled leader getting 6 movement. It was Beygraf Zoltan, Ket's leader, and he moved 6, from Mitrick to Fellreev South. You can see this in the saved game I'm attaching if you go back and look at Ket's round 5 combat movement. Don't know if it helps, but also attaching xml export.
Again, I can't find anything in the game xml that explains why a leader would ever get anything but 4 move, except when riding a dragon.
Update: Many thanks to redrum who figured this out for me (link). Problem has been solved.
Yeah, there are triggers that "decommission" a faction if it loses its leader and heroes. These take away all PUs, increase the number of capitals required from 0 to 2 (so that purchase and placement steps get skipped), and change all relationships to "vanquished" (a type of war). And of course deliver a nice "you're dead" notification.
If an ally revives a vanquished leader, that faction gets "re-commissioned."
If politics are enabled (for FFA), then you get a victory condition if all other factions are vanquished. If politics aren't enabled, you get a victory condition if all the factions in the opposing alliances are vanquished.
I was a fan of you old map... This is simply awesome! Many thanks.
I suggest the old greayhawk remaining available in depot beside the new one.
History plays dice
Thanks. I've occasionally gotten inquires about Greyhawk through the years, especially from people who are D&D fans but new to TripleA. So it seems to help fill an niche here. Which is part of the reason why I decided to come and see if I could take another stab at it, and I'm glad I did.
I've gone back and forth on this. The benefit of replacing the old map with this new version is that anyone with the old map installed would get a notification about the new one. But I think I agree with you. I'll ask that it be uploaded as a separate map. And then perhaps upload a new version of the old map that just has an explanation in the game notes pointing people to the new version.
I've also thought about adding a custom game option that would disable all the bells and whistles (magic, mercenaries, diplomacy, etc.), thereby having a simple version somewhat like the original map. But that would be more work than I think it's worth, and it wouldn't really preserve the original as it is.
You *could* update the old map with the new one.
And the old Version gets a new upload als "Greyhawk - Old Version"
With an explanation in each game notes pointing to the other version.
The map tiles are different, right?
Because it would be possible to have more than one XML file for a map.
It's not just the xml that's different. And not just the relief tiles. There are additional units, renamed units, and perhaps most importantly, there are almost 10% more territories and many others have been renamed. All the centers, placement, polygon, etc., files are changed accordingly.
So as far as I know, there's no way to fold the old version into this one.
Releasing version 0.9.7
Link in first post updated.
Re: Old Greyhawk Wars. The ability to go to certain islands has disappeared. (A known bug.) Are there updated/replacement files for this problem? (polygon? centers? x?) Help would be really appreciated.
This old version i did (not even sure if it works) has a working set of polygon files. Don't copy the connections though, since the map is quite modified.
'thats the way it is' makes it neither desireable nor inevitable
In reply to this post by GaryG
Thanks for the reminder, Gary. When I put the new Greyhawk out, I'll be putting out an updated version of the old game. The only updates will be a note pointing people toward the new game, and I'll also fix this island problem.
In the meantime, you can download this polygons file and copy it over the existing one in the folder containing the old Greyhawk map.
This will make the islands work, but it introduces some unsightly lines. When I roll out the change for real I'll cover the lines with relief images. I can't say when that will be at this point, as it depends on the roll out for the new game, which is the only one I'm really going to be supporting.
Version 0.9.8 now available
The link in the first post has been updated.
Changes revolve around making Greyhawk compatible with the Hard AI, since that's the only AI that will receive development moving forward. This has required disabling certain features. These can be re-enabled for human players via game options or by a user action.
The bottom line is that the Hard AI no longer uses leaders and heroes as cannon fodder. Nor does it fixate unproductively on the ungovernable territories.
In fact, in the casual playtesting I've done recently, the Hard AI has kicked my teeth in. I've scaled back the AI income bonus percentage, but may need to do so further.
At the risk of jinxing myself, I feel like I'm getting close.
Please give it a try and disillusion me if necessary.
@panguitch - Good to hear its getting close to ready! I'll download it and do some AI testing to see how its playing. If you have any save games you'd like me to take a look at just let me know.
This post was updated on .
Trying your map for the first time.
Playing the "Howling North" against HardAI playing the rest.
In the Moment, Round 3 has ended.
My impressions so far:
Many good ideas, especially limiting the unit stocks to a soft limit of 15 units an a hard limit to 60 is really nice!
The good defended mountain areas with no PU Value gives the map a nice strukture, as every player tries to avoid them.
Because of the many different units it is difficult to evatuate dangers.
The double range of all units makes it worse.
Got a defeat, as Furyondy attacked me with 10 Veterans, 8 Champions and 4 Knights i didn't see comming...
Will be interesting, if i will get a chance to recover...
Oh, why i wanted to post:
In mercanary territiories you can not place normal units. I know this is intended!
If you buy too many units, you always get a warning, telling you how many units you can max place.
Now, the code producing this warning can not recognise, how you prevent units from being placed in these territories.
Perhaps take a look at the 300 BC map of Echelon
300 BC Wars
He has splited the PU Produktion of the territories from its unit produktion.
Perhaps you kann make those territories "produce" 0 units right off,
so the engine can sum up properly?
1. New to the map it is difficult to find all the territories, you can bribe to join you.
Is there any posibility to help a new player find the territories?
2. It is nice to get the info, witch territories give bonus PU if you conquered them. But like 1, if one don't know the map, you have problems to recognise where they are.
And one or two rounds later... I can't memorize all territories...
Would be nice to be able to reread them, perhaps in the Gamenotes?
3. Your mercanary all have a cost of 0.
This makes them the first choise for casualities.
Now to tell the truth, this may jaust be right from the storytelling...
Don't know if is intended...
4. Looking at the history, it seems like you have set the trigger too easy for this message
as it pops up for the HardAI quite often.
Or HardAI is too "genius" :-)
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