Great War updates

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Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
Great War (the ww1 game that comes with triplea)

It is fairly balanced, so long as central powers plays perfectly.
The western front is fun.  The eastern front sucks.

I am going to update this map with some changes to try to make the game more fun.  
My other goal is to lessen the amount of bullshit luck that occurs in the first two rounds.  (there are some 50/50 battles involving battleships, so whoever wins will win big (ie: they gets a repaired battleship, which is a lot of crap))

I am open to changing some territory borders, but I don't want to spend too much time on it.

Here are the changes so far:

1. no italian destroyer in 58
naval battle in 64 have been changed.  subs changed to destroyers and BB's turned into battlecruisers.  this is to make everything less dicey.
also, a german infantry changed into artillery in bulgaria
two ottomans infantry moved back to armenia from mosul




2. three german infantry and two german convoy zones added to pacific
uk subs changed to destroyers, BB to BC




3. I want to change some territory borders.  definitely want to do the green one, dividing romania. not sure about the others though.



and also changing some russian artillery into infantry




yes, this is going to screw the balance to hell

but balance can always be fixed later

most important is to make the eastern front fun, or at least no longer terrible


let me know what you think,
i appreciate opinions from people who played the "great war" game before
please keep it within the scope I have set out, of small balance changes and maybe adding territories to eastern front

thx,
veqryn

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ice
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Re: Great War updates

ice
awesome, i like all changes proposed espessialy the extra borders.

some diceness in opening rounds isnt bad as long as it doesnt shift the ballance of the game in 1 direction or the other. instead it could provide different strategys.

i do think ur upgrades are a bit too much for the central powers, so probably the allies are going to need some upgrades aswel

mayheps 1 less zepplin for Germany and/or position 1zep in the westfront so it cant do allot of damage round 1,


is there an easy fix to give usa's insane delay a short boost? would it be insane to give there ships a movement of 3?

ice
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
what if we make the "usa goes to war" territory worth nothing until usa captures it
but once USA drops their guys on it, the value goes up to ~20 or even ~30?

that would give people a reason to buy something other than zepplins, cus the next round you could spend that money on inf and transports, and really pump a ton of them out over just 2 rounds
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Re: Great War updates

SuperNova
I really like the divisions of the Russian Territories.  I agree, the Eastern Front can be dull.  Unless the German player isn't paying attention, then it is quite easy for the Russians to take Berlin.
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Re: Great War updates

soulfein
In reply to this post by Veqryn
really nice suggestions veq, I agree with all of them especially getting rid of the stupid 1st round dicings; but I fear the division of russian territories might swing the balance in favour of centrals.

not sure it can be compansated by the ´usa goes to war with an ultra imba factory´, but surely we can playtest it and see how it goes.

ty for your work

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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
we can always give russia more infantry and convoy zones until they 'are' balanced

my goal for the eastern front:

1. increase the distance from all of russia's factories to all central power's capitals
2. make it harder for russia to invade all the central powers at the same time.  if russia is invading, it should have to be pick one.
3. ensure that it is still relatively easier for russia to defender herself than it is for germany to invade

i've adjusted the territory divisions so that st.petersburg and moscow can combine troops a little easier

let me know what you think, and any specific changes to what territories connect to what

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ice
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Re: Great War updates

ice
looks good to me, i yust hope u can fit in enough units in the smaller territorys,

range between capitals is so much better this way,


may i suggest that cavelry is a much better choise to change units in then infantry, atleast Russia gets some mobilaty, but defence is worse. mobilaty will give them still some fun options.

theres 1 downside to all this, the regions around Greece, now Russia is defentaly out of range to help out those guys, but maybe we wanna give Russia a turn to produce there? espessialy when we kill there option to take a capital :)  so i would suggest changeing Bulgaria back to Original maybe or even add a russian


ice
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Veqryn
once i change territory borders, I am NOT going to do it again because it is a major pain in the ass

IF you guys have any suggestions or changes you would make to territory borders, you need to do it NOW (in the next 1-2 days)

should i divide/not-divide up zzz territory?

should xxx territory touch/not-touch yyy territory?


edit:
current discussion is on:

1. whether to keep that "Y" intersection by ukraine

2. whether to split up Ryzan in half, with the western side not touching moscow. (ie: a line from crimea to smolensk)

3. whether to combine both Pskov and Iver (to make russian defense easier)
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Re: Great War updates

Maquis
i really like your changes. it will improve the map for sure.
maybe it would be better to give russia a territory from which it can save the route to petrograd and crimea factory, otherwise i think it would be too easy to take russia out with Germany + Austria.

and maybe combine some sz near Amerika so they come 1-2 turns faster to europe, this could compensate for a weaker russia

and for unit positions i would suggest to move some russians a bit backwards so that Germany could force a fast attack in the west before the russian can invade them from the east, so that a western attack would be possible
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
In reply to this post by Veqryn
So I spent some time talking to some decent players, namely ajm, ice, adm, and a few others.

Any change to the eastern front would make russia completely indefensible because the capital is in Petrograd (st petersburg).

With the capital in the north, russia can be made to retreat easily in order to defend it, which leaves the rest of russia wide open for taking.

The solution of course is to move the capital to Moscow, except that Moscow is easier to take than Petrograd even though it provides more options.  Plus it is not as historical.

So I hit on the idea of giving Russia 2 capitals, both Petro and Moscow.  Russia must lose both before it affects them in anyway (ie: they do not lose their money if only 1 is taken).

This gives russia the best options as far as flexibility to defend goes.



So here are the changes I've made:

11 new territories and 3 new convoy zones:
Perm
Volgograd
Moldovia
Kharkiv
Odesa
Estonia
Kiev
Belarus
Bryansk
Konigsberg
Lodz

US Goes to War worth 30 now, and can only be captured by USA.  Also it is undefended, so if USA can sneak a single transport past Germany they may be able to capture it a whole 2 rounds earlier.

The central powers have lost 5 production on the Eastern front, due to territories being split and revalued to lower production values.

Russia has gained 7 units.  Belgrade will now survive round 1.

Due to both the changes in romania and also belgrade, Greece will now survive longer.

Germany can make pacific survive a while if it spends some money there.

A German destroyer moved to sz32 to prevent an over-powered german round 1 due to freed up zepplins.

Less dicey round 1 battles: UK has some BB's replaced with BC's, and subs replaced with destroyers.  Italian destroyer blocking Austrians is removed.

Russia has 2 capitals and will not be affected until both are lost.  Belarus is now key to Russian defense.

Russian territories worth only 1 each, so conquering russia doesn't gain much money.


Here are some images of the changes:

Russia:



Balkans:



Pacific:




This is going to be AWESOME!
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Re: Great War updates

HuskerMike
Will the original Great War still be available or will it disappear?
Go Big Red!
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
disappear
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
In reply to this post by Veqryn
I would also like to mention that this map will be impossible to balance for both Low Luck and Dice at the same time.

This is because there are a large number of important battles for Central Powers in the first round, and all these battle occur before the Allies have a chance to do anything.

Therefore, Central Powers reaps the benefit of better results (and more stable results) in all these battles, while Allies reap nothing.


So, I wish to put out a disclaimer:

I am going to try to balance the map for DICE, because the map defaults to dice.

Low Luck is going to need some sort of bid for the Allies to counter-act the benefit that Central Powers gain from using LL.  (It would be great to figure out what the bid would be though.)




Here is a quick example of the difference between low luck and dice coming into play:

A battle that is 75% is Dice would be lost 25% of the time with multiple defensive units left.

In Low Luck, that battle becomes 100% with 4+ units left on attack.

The naval battle in SZ64 is one such battle.  Right now it is 80-90% in dice, depending on if I change any units around.  If attackers win (80% of the time) they are left with an average of 3.5 units.  If defender win (20% of the time) they are left with 2 units left.
But in LL that becomes 100% of the time with 4.5 units left for attacker.

HUGE difference in my opinion.  

There are bunch of battles like this, so Allies will need a bid in LL.


Now if anyone has ideas on reducing the difference between DICE and LL, I'm all ears.  But the only ways I can think of are giving CP less battles, or giving Allies more battles, both of which would mean a total change to the entire setup of the map, which I am trying to avoid.  (I am trying to only change the setup of the eastern front.)

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Re: Great War updates

Zim Xero
IDEA --> selectible game option for any game but intended for  low luck games:  gives all units +1 defense on first game round only.
'thats the way it is' makes it neither desireable nor inevitable
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
In reply to this post by Veqryn
to try the new greatwar map, download the new triplea (it is included):
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/TripleA-1-7-0-1-Beta-has-been-released-tp7583551.html
Please contribute to the TripleA 2013 donation drive:
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
First off, I figured out that I actually CAN balance the game for both LL and Dice

I will make 2 xml's one for Dice and one for LL.

The only difference will be very small unit additions in a few key places for the allies on LL.


Ok here are possible ideas for the next version:


* remove connection belgian congo - sudan
* add connection usa goes to war - sz87
* add connection barents to sz29
* change sz94 uk battlecruiser into battleship
* up usa goes to war to 50 production.  once conquered normal usa goes down to 10 or 20
* remove some back-territory russians (tver, nov, suz), so that russia can still hold warsaw for a little bit, but then has to retreat cus of fewer reinforcements coming in
* add some german units so that germany can take and hold warsaw on g4 (munich)
* -2 ottoman infantry (to compensate for their gain of 2 air left over from changed odds on round1 navy attack)
* move german dd from 32 back to sz33
* one sz38 cruiser to a battlecruiser
* combat move before purchase


big question: what bonus should i give the allies in the LL version?
I was thinking of extra sea units in the med....



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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
here is version 4.1.1 of Great War

until the next release, I am making these available as savegames

Dice version:
great_war_4.1.1_dice.tsvg

Low Luck version:
great_war_4.1.1_low_luck.tsvg


changes are basically what i wrote above

Edit:
I updated to 4.1.1 to fix a mistaken connection in the map.

xml here (you can actually load an xml just like a savegame):
great_war.xml
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Re: Great War updates

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Veqryn
Well it seems that Russia is still able to kick Germany's but no matter what happens.
I got some very good dice as CP, but still couldn't push past warsaw for the entire game.

So, here is a new version:
Germany gets +2 units.
Russia gets -11 units.

With some playtesting I've found that if Germany attacks warsaw round 1 with everything (including zeps) that can reach, and builds some cavalry in the first 3 rounds, and max produces in the german area, they can take and hold warsaw on round 4, and push Russia back out of kiev on round 6 if Austria helps a very small amount.  If Austria sends some help, Germany can even build a factory round 5 for konigsburg, and without Austrian help round 6 instead.

Here is Great War 4.3:

download the savegame, then load it every time you want to start:

dice:
great_war_4.3_dice.tsvg

low luck:
great_war_4.3_low_luck.tsvg



or, download the xml and copy/paste it over top of the old xml (in the "great_war/games/" folder):
great_war.xml



thx,
veqryn
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ice
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Re: Great War updates

ice
cool,

looks good for that front, however im not too sure about german navy strategy, might be too strong with a zepplin sacrifice and a few sub buys

havent had much time to playtest yet, but will keep you updatet of my oppinion :)

good job so far

ice
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Re: Great War updates

TheArchduke
Heya,

A pal of me and me have played NWO and the Great War quite some times over the last 1-2 years.

We stopped playing Great War and whilst I find your effort to make the Great War better, I am puzzled that you carved up Russia even more.

Whilst you identified Russia´s advantage attacking two Great Powers at once, the two-pronged attack possibility via Silesia still exists (two turns to both Capitals) making in my ideas any "strategy" apart from kill Russia early and hard non existant.

I remember editing Great War myself in the past. Deleting Pacific and Africa entirely (also two theatres where you go through the moves) and adding some neutrals to make the North Sea a bit more lively ala NWO.

All in all, my hope is that Sieg makes a WW1 map.

I think you need to reduce the russian provinces a bit and add some german/austrian ones.
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