Game of the month 3

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Re: Game of the month 3

Black Elk
This post was updated on .
Playing on for a little bit, this is the situation at the end of the 9th round, following the Axis response to that 10 VC play by USA in the 8th to clinch it. I decided to fighter spam the pacific and just take another airblitz gamble vs G.

Elk_vs_AI_GOTM3_10VC_take_Berlin_again_round_9.tsvg

For some perplexing reason the Japanese AI allowed for recapture of Berlin by the Americans. They could have send 2 more fighter to guarantee that the German capital would hold, but instead the Americans stormed in a second time!  Money :)

With Germany stripped of its gold two times, the Americans can perhaps start making up all those air units they just sacrificed hehe.

ps. Just took Tokyo at the end of the 12th round!
Taste it Japan!

They crumbled under the weight of American fighters and bombers flying in on them from all directions hehe. Finally making them pay for all those games were they did the same to me...

Elk_vs_AI_GOTM3_10VC_take_Tokyo_round_12_USA.tsvg


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Re: Game of the month 3

Cernel
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
If the objective is Capture 10 Victory Cities, which I assume means Allies must control 10 Victory Cities end round (right?), why is Honorable Surrender deselected?
History plays dice
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Re: Game of the month 3

Cernel
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
Here it is a round 5 TUV 707 victory (+141 TUV) (I've kept Honorable Surrender up, cause that's 10 VC win):

GotM_20150924_Cernel_World_War_II_v5_1942_Second_Edition_Win.tsvg

Considerations:

1) Don't use TUV, use either the TUV difference (in this case Allies TUV - Axis TUV) or just give the win to the first one posting the same result. Even production would be better than using only 1 side TUV.

2) Dice games need having NO RELOAD at all. Keep the save every 5 rounds for LL, if you like, but dice needs having no reload at all, seriously (I've never reloaded). Some crucial battles are very important, and taking a save just before them is too much of an advantage. I believe it is not an issue, because people that want to reload can play the LL variant, instead; so, really, make the NO RELOAD rule for dice games, even with big maps.

3) This GotM, sadly, has been falsified by using a too low victory condition. Since the AI can't see VC, you need to set VC at a level avoiding sneaky victories. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone else getting a round 4 or 3 sneaky victory here. With so low victory condition, this GotM is not really playing better than AI, but exploiting AI inability to see Victory Cities. I would have much preferred playing at 13 Victory Cities and focusing on playing well, instead of playing silly and focusing on getting the sneaky victory asap.

Aside from this, it was fun. Thanks ZielcoP for this nice idea. I hope it will become popular. Seems like redrum and Triplelk cooperation managed to make the AI play WW2v5 almost like an average player; I would imagine the AI would be able to beat 30 or maybe even 40% of players here, as long as you play Full Victory (13 Victory Cities).

I look forward at my win being stomped by some noob posting a round 3 victory.

Cheers

p.s.: Once more time, I suggest having the same stuff and only dice/LL difference (meaning here I would suggest also the dice challenge having the +10 PUs bonus income AI and bid). Why the hell an harder challenge for LL instead of dice??? Makes no sense to me, unless you think that dice players are worse than LL players, which would be silly.

at crazy_german: Actually, you won that game (GOTM03TotalVictory) on round 16. Congrats, cause 20 bid and +10 flat bonus look hard, in a map already unbalanced in favour of Axis, even tho I haven't tried, because it's Lame Luck.
History plays dice
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Re: Game of the month 3

Cernel
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
I suggest v6 next.
History plays dice
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Re: Game of the month 3

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Cernel
Did I? I was playing until I held the cities for an entire round uninterrupted for the reasons you mentioned (I broke the GOTM rules a couple times as well). VC victory has never been well done in any game I've seen, and this game is much more entertaining if played until an actual victory (not just holding 10 cities) is achieved. Especially with the given turn order, it is too easy to grab and claim you won the game.

I would have rather played dice, but it terms of trying to set a record LL is more appropriate. This is a good challenge in that, rather unconventionally, the game isn't easily won by just getting a fat TUV trade. The AI income remains high all game and can seriously threaten to make a come back late game (this is partially due to bombers being overpowered relative to Navy, but hey it works)

The LL/dice is because the harder challenge is seen as the true competition. When trying to set a record for sake of competition, it makes more sense to limit dice variation, and with dice a silly turn 02 victory isn't that far fetched.

I agree TUV difference makes more sense. Otherwise the optimal play is to avoid attacking anything but the VC on the last turn.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Game of the month 3

ZjelcoP
Looks like some great games Gents!

@Cernel
Well honorable surrender was off because I wasn't sure what or how much VC it was.(I just play deadmatch ;-)
Gamenotes talk about a normal Victory?? Checking the XML I see it's the same.
Might also be confusing to other players, so just stating 10VC seemed simple and clear enough to me.

1 Well for the tiebreaker:
Using production would probably lead to lots of kamikaze actions to grab some extra land on finish, which seems lame to me.
TUV seemed simple enough, hadn't put any thought in using TUV-difference. Probably is better because minimizing attacks might not pay off then.
First one posting is not an option. Everyone gets a full month (1,5 this time) to try out their strategies. It's not a race to who does it first. Also you don't have to share your game here for everyone to see, but it is fun. You can also send it to Triplea.GOTM@hotmail.com as some others do and keep your winning strategy hidden until it's posted in Final Results.

2 No reloads:
That is an option, but depends on what others want.
There were times when I had to move for work constantly, so had to shutdown my laptop often.
Also windows deciding to install it's updates when you're about to grab the victory after 10 turns might cause some frustration...
Think 5 turns is a reasonable compromise.

3
The regular challenge does seem fairly sneakable indeed. Thought 10 would be enough to be needing a good advantage to achieve, but some good strategies proved me wrong. Experimental seems hard enough though. I somewhat dislike having to conquer Everything, especially Japan, but if prefered we can go that way next challenge.

Only dice/ll difference in games..
Well the idea was to have the GOTM open to any player. So a player with no knowledge on how to update his AI, and perhaps less skill in A&A can also compete. Keep it really basic. The Experimental Challenge probably is too much for some players, especially this one.
My assumption was that a less experienced player is more likely to play dice. Which does not mean Dice-players are less skilled. Playing the AI with Dice is definately harder than LL.
As the harder challenge is probably more competitive keeping most of the big Dice-factor out of it seems better. Many options, many preferences, can't make everyone happy but do see your point.

@Crazy German
You seem to prefer to have savegames? For you no saves would be a non-option? However we do need a rule on that to prevent extensive abuse, therefore the 5 turn rule.
If your game was a submission it wouldn't fly. 1 Edit without game consequences could be overlooked, but every turn cannot. Also you made some illegal moves (and deleted one of your own inf and arty i believe ;-)
But you would have to beat Elk's turn-8 game anyway. Still got more than a month :-D
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Re: Game of the month 3

crazy_german
Maybe I wasn't clear but that game wasn't intended to be a submission. Just a game I played inspired by the GOTM (I played until well after the victory condition was achieved) inspired by a Black Elk comment on difficulty in total victory. I posted it here in case others were interested. I will be submitting my entry later this month.

Would there be some way to set it up so that we play PBEM with the AI and our self? That way you could still take breaks, but not be able to reload for better dice. That would be a good solution to save game issues.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Game of the month 3

Black Elk
I think the most enjoyable thing about playing the AI is that it doesn't give up, so in that respect I kind of like challenge conditions that push the endgame farther than most human players would play.

Foisting an AI ally onto the team was interesting, but Russia and triple team coordination is so critical to the allied game that I think that was the most challenging part of this challenge. I think you could split the Axis this way (1 human and 1 ai) and they would probably perform a bit better than the Allies do.

For periodic saves/reloads I think its more of a convenience thing than anything else. Or I suppose if you goofed a non combat move or something. Some kind of PBEM/PBF type set up is easy enough if the goal is just to track the rounds and the combat results. It might even encourage more people to play, though I'm not sure how A&A.org would feel fielding a bunch of solo games vs the AI hehe. It'd be easy enough to set up with a challenge moderator or a host email of some sort. That way people could play at their leisure/  

I also like the idea of eventually expanding this concept from AI "Game of the Month" to just a series of "Suggested Challenges" for the various maps that come with tripleA.

So for example, the LL challenge we just played might be one of those for v5. Or you could do one where the Human plays as Russia but has to achieve some impressive goal, like 60 production and control of an Axis capital. Or where the Human plays Axis and has to do some series of crazy feats. Do these for both Dice and LL play, tweaking the challenges to suit the playstyle. Then compile a list like that for all the popular tripleA maps (with suggested bonuses or modifications etc) as a way of encouraging "single player" mode vs the TripleAI.

I also think v6 would be fun. Nobody plays it really, but its kind of a wild little map, where fighters can fly all over the place. I think it could be fun with a bid or some income boosts.
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Re: Game of the month 3

Black Elk
This post was updated on .
Here is an interesting game, where I was just mindlessly asleep at the wheel, but somehow managed to take Tokyo in the 6th round, and then keep it in the 7th!...

Screwing_around_GOTM_Tokyo_Sneak.tsvg

Hehe not sure why the Japanese didn't choose to liberate their capital?

As the Allies I went with an exceedingly silly Battleship spam by the Americans, and a pure fighter spam with UK. Several forgotten non combat moves, including pointlessly losing the British bomber to no purpose and some wild RAF air-blitz maneuvers, you know because I'm sleep deprived.

Here Japan allowed the Americans to dime in on their capital with a quickness, and blow them out with a brutal bombardment. Crazy

It's not a 10 VC win yet, since Germany took Moscow in the same round, but I was surprised that the Machine let me in so soon, when usually Japan is spamming bombers forever. A little puzzled here by the decision of the Japanese to let the lone infantry occupy their capital, rather than just sacrifice a transport to restore their income. But hey, with as mercilous as the machine has been to me when the situation is reversed, I guess I'll take it lol

ps. I played another 10 rounds just to see how long it would take me to actually destroy the IJN.
I finally wolf packed the machine into a corner, and am poised to achieve naval dominance at long last heheh. Had to chase those bastards around the globe twice before I finally caught them!

Took forever for USA crushed the IJN, but now that Japan has finally been neutralized, the UK is ready to start working on the Kriegsmarine hehe. 17 rounds in here
Screwing_around_GOTM_epic_cat_and_mouse.tsvg

Made it to the 20th with UK, too tired to press on heheh.
The endless American submarine blockade of Fortress Europa has forced the Germans to give up their naval ambitions at long last. There air spam is sure to be ruthless now. Especially since they still have that stronghold up in iceland. Not sure how much longer it will take to crack Berlin.

The Afrikakorps is still pretty impressive, victory in the desert may yet be a mirage, but Mr. sandman will is probably go atomic on me and turn that whole region into glass if I don't catch some Zzzs. Night all

Screwing_around_GOTM_finals_squeeze_round_20.tsvg


Round 28... Crazy back and forth.
Berlin is ours at last!

German AI's final Downfall after some insane bomber snakes against us, we came back Indian Jones style rolling around all over the whole damned planet hehe. Here is the last before I crash
Screwing_around_GOTM_take_Berlin_round_28.tsvg




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Re: Game of the month 3

ZjelcoP
In reply to this post by Black Elk
One week left for this GOTM!

Send your submission and any idea's you may have for the next GOTM.

Cheers!
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Re: Game of the month 3

ZjelcoP
Final results!

2 more players decided to enter the Arena in the General Category and put up a brave fight! Welcome both!
Though the finish was pretty close Cernel managed to snatch Victory one round before Bossman in an impressive 5 turn win!

1 Cernel       Finish: Round 5-5 (American turn)  GOTM03_Cernel.tsvg
2 Bossman    Finish: Round 6-5                        GOTM03_Bossman.tsvg 

And in the Experimental category....  After some amazing struggles and crushing defeats by the amazing AI...
BlackElk finally come out on top and beat his Archenemy in an amazing 8 turns!
Probably the rest of the playerfield was so intimidated or awed none other dared putting up their pittyfull result....(well I was pretty busy...Only managed to get crushed by AI ;-)

1 BlackElk     Finish: Round 8-5                         GOTM03_Elk.tsvg 

Thx for playing!

So next V6, no reloads for dice, both challenges AI +10 Flat rate, Reduce Allies to 0 production. Suggestions?
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Re: Game of the month 3

Cernel
This post was updated on .
Biggest suggestion: Never use the TUV value for victory; use the TUV difference (your TUV minus enemy TUV) or, otherwise, the total production.

Also, I would say +25% bonus income to AI for v6 (but whatever; also no bonus and winning asap is good).

Biggest question is how to expand the players' base?...

EDIT: To avoid being misunderstood, I never suggested going for a "conquer the whole map" thing. I just said that the victory condition is better set at a level at which, when achieving it, you are anyway over 90% sure to win, no matter what (meaning that the one winning would be the one that would have won, anyway, would the game go on till total victory). I think the regular victory condition of v6 is good at this. For example, in v3 I would suggest not using the 13 VC victory (projection), but using the 15 VC victory (honorable), instead, but not using the 18 VC victory (total), which would be ridiculous IMO.
History plays dice
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Re: Game of the month 3

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
So I forgot to actually submit, which is a shame since I finished this weeks ago and I was really proud of this game. I finished on round 4-5 (America's turn), and I'm pretty sure that completing it faster isn't possible unless you get the AI to do something really unusual.
GOTM03CrazyGerman.tsvg

I don't like victory cities as a win condition. I probably won't even win this game if played to total victory, Russia is screwed and the American forces in Italy and China will get slaughtered in a counter attack. On all the ww2vx series of maps the turn order makes any victory city system extremely biased in favor of the allies.

The victory condition I have liked most so far was the very first one (which required conquering all American territory). What I liked about this condition was that you actually had to decisively defeat the AI, not just grab land and declare victory before the AI can counter attack. I don't think that just a total victory condition is really that interesting to be honest though, maybe just hold all three allied capitals?

As far as a tiebreaker, TUV isn't a great choice, but I can't think of anything that doesn't have flaws. TUV difference is an improvement I guess. The thing with TUV is I actually should have just avoided attacking anything in Africa/India, to preserve my own TUV, since those units don't affect the victory cities.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Game of the month 3

Cernel
Correct.

What I meant is that a good victory condition (and more likely a needed one, up until the AI can see VC) is one that, in order to achieve it, you have to decisively defeat the opponent, not just grab land and declare victory.

For example in v3:

13 VC is a bad condition, because it may happen that the allies achieve it without being decisively winning (only as long as the other side doesn't mind about protecting the VC, of course).
15 VC is a good condition, because, in order to achieve it, you have to decisively defeat the opponent (it is almost impossible to actually reach it, because anyone would surrender before).
18 VC is a bad condition, because it is ridiculously long to achieve, and any sensible person would surrender not later than the opponent having 14 victory cities (and usually before, at about 11 or 12).

Even tho, if I would be asked to set the optimal VC victory value for v3, I would opt for 14 VC.
History plays dice
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Re: Game of the month 3

ZjelcoP
Some good points there Gentlemen!

Though I don't think all win-conditions would have to be equal to a near-total win.
Some challenges that make you play with a special target in mind can be fun, though it shouldn't end up in a simple steal as with the Victory points or how to exploit the AI-weaknesses, i do agree on that.

Also would like to try out less standard maps. Was thinking of Atari for example. Had a tough time beating back the Japanese attack as the Japanese have all forces concentrated and Allies forces are spread all over the map. Makes for a logistical challenge and tactical defensive retreat until consolidating.

Think I'll put together the Total ranking list, which might get people more involved.
I'll be fine with including your result as no1 Crazy, as long as Elk has no objections.

My idea on ranking:
No1 :3 points, no2:2, no3:1.
Keep challenges-ranking seperated or combine them? If combined someone doing both challenges might grow double the amount of points but then that is their reward for effort put in.... Or allow only one submission per GOTM....



 
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