Game of the Month 2

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Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
This post was updated on .
Welcome to this second TripleA Game of the Month!
This month one of the biggest, best and most popular maps around on TripleA:

Map:
   New World Order


Mission:
   Germany has kidnapped scientists from all over the world and is forcing them to build a Nuclear Weapon.
   Stop them before it is too late!

Objective:
   Capture Berlin as quickly as possible.
   In case of a tie the player with the highest number of units in Berlin wins.
   (Note: make the save at END of NonCombatMove)

Game options:
   Set these options:




For all info, rules, results and discussion:
    http://www.tripleawarclub.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2074&forum=36

Have fun!








Those who don’t mind a bit harder challenge and installing one or two files can compete in the Experimental league!

Experimental League

AI:
   How to update the AI:
   http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/How-to-update-the-AI-tp7588638.html

   This months AI:
   https://www.sendspace.com/file/49ni1l


Special conditions:
   Germany scientists have discovered how to make gold from plumb!
   Axis powers will receive a 10% income bonus!

Game options:




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Re: Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
This post was updated on .
Final results!

A new player has entered the arena and went on to smash all records with a very impressive turn 4 capture of Berlin even with a 10% income-bonus for the Axis! Wielded his canopener like a BattleAxe!
And I was fairly confident my own turn 7 achievement would hold out quite well.....

We could use some more competition here. Next months challenge I'll leave up to you to make!

1 Bel      Finish: Round 4-7 (British turn)  GOTM2_bel.tsvg
2 Zjelco  Finish: Round 7-7                    GOTM2_Zjelco.tsvg
3 Ice     Finish: Round 8-7                     GOTM2_Ice.tsvg  Though he didn't really try very hard he said...
(Included you to make the field seem larger :-)

Thx for playing!
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Re: Game of the Month 2

HuskerMike
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
Whew! That was work! The Russians entered Berlin on turn 31 (no 10% bonus for Axis countries).

Since I am a slow, methodical player, this will give every one an easy target to beat.

It was fun to play. I recently checked in and found out about the Hard AI, a fantastic improvement. I played the Allies in Ultimate Pants and Germany took Moscow. Then I tried Ultimate World: Expanded and lost Moscow to Germany, again. The AI plays land powers quite well.

I think NWO is easier for the Allies to defend Moscow and ultimately win because of the cheap infantry. I think that keeps Russia in the game. Also, the lack of a Japan means every bit of fighting power can face west.

I am not a great fan of Low Luck. It definitely helps the human. Non-Low Luck allows for great victories and defeats as found in real warfare. It also forces players to keep reserves, just in case, thus inhibiting the human.
Go Big Red!
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Re: Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
Hey Mike,

Good to hear you had a challenging fight!

Indeed lowluck does help the human player. And the AI is not as good at reaping the benefits of Low Luck.
Next months regular challenge is Dice again. Depending on feedback and requests it might stay dice in the future.

If you send me the savegame (TripleA.GOTM@hotmail.com) i can include it in the results, or you can post it here for others to enjoy.

Cheers!
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Re: Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
One more week for this GOTM!

I've seen good results in both the regular and experimental challenge going well under the 10 turn mark!

Is anyone going to beat those results and be this month's winner? We'll know next week....
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Re: Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
This post was updated on .
Final Results up!!  ^^^

http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Game-of-the-Month-2-tp7588951p7588952.html


Next months challenge I'll leave up to you to come up with a long as we're waiting for 1_8_0_9.

When released there is only 1 AI, so probably only one challenge for GOTM3.

So what would you like to see? Preferably in detail.
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Re: Game of the Month 2

Cernel
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
OMG Berlin taken round 4 with almost the latest AI and +10%...

Shame on you Redrum! Shame on uuu!!!

I can confirm that in whatever maps in which the dinamics of a player cleaning up a path for the fast units of others is a major thing, the AI is just hopeless.

Up until the AI handles canopeners, I would rather suggest basing GotM on games in which the canopener plays a minor role (*cough* *cough* 270BC *cough* *cough*).

Maybe extending to 3 months duration per challenge (Game of the Season)?
History plays dice
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Re: Game of the Month 2

crazy_german
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
First let me say congrats on a 4 turn finish, that is really impressive. I didn't submit this month, but let me offer some thoughts

NWO isn't a very enjoyable map to play against the AI. This was basically a game of "find the best way to exploit the AI", and I wasn't really enjoying it (I started a game but never finished). Because the AI has little logic for capitals, can openers, and nations that are mixed land-sea powers, I feel like I'm basically just playing against a randomly moving opponent. The AI also had really weird purchase choices, I saw Germany spam elites.

The bonus income has very little effect on this challenge, because with or without the Allies could still outproduce the Axis AI by a substantial margin. I would suggest a larger amount than 10% be used next time.

For NWO, the difference between a well played axis and a poorly played axis is enormous. Unless the AI can execute a decent opening, it is completely different than playing a human vs human game (for a map like Revised, the difference isn't as big). I think a map where the gap is smaller would be a better choice.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Game of the Month 2

redrum
Administrator
So 4 turns is impressive. Congrats!

Some thoughts:
- Can openers are probably the biggest weakness of the AI since it currently doesn't understand turn order. These tend to be more common in large/complex maps such as NWO. This is essentially the next thing I'm going to focus on implementing.
- crazy_german is pretty much spot on. These 3 things are definite weaknesses of the AI which are important on NWO: little logic for capitals, can openers, and nations that are mixed land-sea powers. These are also fairly complex issues that beginner/mid level human players struggle with as well. The AI also tends to play the Allies much better (if you run all Hard AI on NWO the allies win pretty handily every time).
- While there are definite weaknesses on NWO, if you want to see how far the AI has come then turn on the Medium AI and you'll see there is a big difference.
- I haven't gotten much feedback around the AI on NWO as most of the consistent pre-release testers haven't played it much so specific feedback is appreciated.
- 10% income bonus for Axis on NWO is way too low to even make things interesting. This was more of a how fast can I exploit the AI game. (I'd actually guess that even with both sides all Hard AI the Allies would win with that bonus)
- One benefit is now I have a few test games to use as I implement turn order :)

PS. Did Bel post a writeup or anything?
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Re: Game of the Month 2

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Cernel
Cernel, do you have experience against the AI on 270 BC? I think 270 BC is a likley poor choice for a GOTM, the reason being that the AI will probably think every nation is a land power (like it does for Italy in NWO), and purchase no navy and avoid trying to transport troops by sea. This makes power located in the Mediterranean play rather silly generally.

I would suggest using Big World, Pact of Steel, or a WW2vX map. Something that can show off the talented AI, though a totally new map would also be useful for feedback purposes. If someone wants an interesting challenge, play the AI in minimap (I think it might be invincible)

PS, how many entries this month?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Game of the Month 2

Black Elk
This post was updated on .
I'd vote for World War 2 v5 as the next challenge.

When you compare v5 to another world war 2 game like v3 (AA50), I think v5 is a demonstrably better game for the AI right now.

v3 = AA50: canopeners abound, especially with Italy or UK, which can be very potent and prone to exploitation by the human. Also, AA50 has objectives and technology (both of which are problematic, the former because the AI can't track objectives, the latter because the AI invests too much into tech rolls.) AA50 also has more total nations in play with weird China rules to boot.

V5 = 1942.2: doesn't have any of those rules distractions and just 5 player nations, so I think it would be best for a fast game.

v6 = 1941 starter board: would likely work as well, though that map is kind of crazy, and kind of small, and the lack of artillery has a way of grinding the pace despite the simplified map/unit roster. So I like v5 over v6 as a way highlight the recent AI advances for most players.

Perhaps allow a dual challenge? 1 for Allies and 1 for Axis, with different goals, or different bonuses?

I think the AI functions pretty well in v5, at least in terms of game-pacing, since the scope of the map is more limited than some other tripleA games and there are less total nations/rules to deal with.  For a Game of the Month Challenge, a map that showcases what the AI does well right now, would be more fruitful than one which shows its current weaknesses.

I would suggest steering clear of Global for example, or games that rely heavily upon the politics or national objectives feature, since those kinks still need to be ironed out for the AI. But v5 feels solid. For a harder challenge, you can just give the machine an income bonus or a bid.
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Re: Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
Well World War 2 v5 sounds good to me. The more exotic maps like 270bc I was planning on saving for a bit later.

So what would the objective(s) be? Race to Victory points and how many? Would leave some room for choosing your targets. Or someone have other idea's?

I like the Axis + Allies challenge, that's how I always play AI. But already hard enough to fill one challenge at this time...
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Re: Game of the Month 2

Cernel
Maybe moving the main thread to Axis & Allies org to broadden the base?

Also, I think this should belong to the tripleawarclub, not this forum, btw.
History plays dice
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Re: Game of the Month 2

redrum
Administrator
Its a good point Cernel though warclub is really dead these days so I'd vote to keep it here over that. I believe its technically posted in all 3 though.
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Re: Game of the Month 2

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Black Elk
I'll give v5 a +1. I'd like to see a challenge with the post-anniversary sub rules
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
Bel
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Re: Game of the Month 2

Bel
In reply to this post by ZjelcoP
I think crazy_german has it right with the weaknesses of the AI. Though I would say a challenge like game of the month is always "find the best way to exploit the AI" ;)
To me better capital defense would be the most important improvement (which would involve handling can openers). Many other things can be balanced through higher income for the AI. But if he doesnt defend his capital properly income bonus does not help.
Oh and sometimes it would be good to check if he can hold the capital when recapturing. Because that way you can basically "farm" the PUs of a defeated nation.

well for future games of the month I would suggest 2 ideas
first is a survival game: you have to defend a certain land (e.g. finland) against an extremely strong AI (like 300% income) as long as possible
second is switching sides: this means playing the part the AI played before. For example trying to win the game as axis after Berlin has been taken. (it would need an interesting savegame though - something that is challenging but not impossible)

By the way AI does not always defend accordingly to good TUV exchange. There is a example of AI not defending his fleet properly in turn 2 of my game (It was +20 TUV for me). It happens in land situations too.
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Re: Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
@ Cernel: I agree it should be in the warclub, so the mainthread actually is there. But as Redrum pointed out, traffic is low, hardly anyone comments there. More important, forum options really suck. It's a pain or impossible to upload pics and savegames. Two good incentives for me to improve on that.
 That is why I decided to put the challengethread here. I am also advertising it at Axis & Allies.org, though I'm not so familiar with that site. Maybe will move in time.

@Bel: Those are nice idea's! Survival-mode seems fun, and the reversal I already played several times when I got the AI pretty on it's knees. Though with this AI it will have gotten a lot harder!

@ everyone: keep the good idea's coming!

So v5 it is then!


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Re: Game of the Month 2

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Bel
I've posted a savegame to the AI development thread where Italy gave its fleet up turn 02, I'm also noticing many more poor TUV exchanges from the AI in larger maps. They are a pretty rare sites in medium sized games (unless you exploit turn order of course)

Here is another idea for a game of the month. Your allies are played by the AI, the human gets only a single nation. So you have to maximize the impact of your nation without being able to coordinate well.

Also, consider implementing a hard bonus (+15PUs per turn) rather than a percentage boost. This keeps the income high even when losing territory or getting bombed heavily.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Game of the Month 2

redrum
Administrator
@crazy_german - Agree. Large maps it tends to be much more fun to only play a single nation say germany, UK, russia, italy on NWO then play an entire side. Sort of have to figure out how to make the biggest difference while working with your AI allies.
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Re: Game of the Month 2

ZjelcoP
Don't have time to testplay it now.

ww2 v5: Reach 10 victorypoints by only playing british. Rest all AI.
Seems like a real challenge.

Doable? Fun?
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