Flag Display Mode

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Flag Display Mode

panguitch
Current prerelease has a new feature, "Flag Display Mode." Not sure when exactly this was introduced.

It's a nice feature to have. But I wish it defaulted to "none". It can be redundant with the unit images of some maps.

I'd prefer it be something that can be turned on if the additional visual cue is needed, rather than have it be something that needs to be turned off when it's not needed or is redundant or creates visual clutter.

Greyhawk Wars
TripleA in the original Dungeons & Dragons world

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Re: Flag Display Mode

Cernel
I wish some developers would not change default behaviours or reduce any options without at least asking and waiting some months, especially when they have no serious mapmaking experience.

But, generally speaking, you should never change the default behaviour nor reduce any options, if it is not mandatory or you haven't gathered a clear widespread consensus on the changes.
History plays dice
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Re: Flag Display Mode

aaalafayette
Administrator
Constructive and concise feedback is necessary for this to remain an efficient process. Developer costs multiply with each day that passes in delay. No joke, loss of context, re-testing, merge conflicts, review queue overhead - these are real costs. You are trading this for things actually getting done. There are hundreds of problems with the code base, it's already a pain in the butt to do anything and very fragile to not break the game completely.

So with that said, please be direct. You can look at the history of the game very easily, https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/commits, and be constructive about what you would like to change.

Yes, the default of the new feature can be set to off. This was debated. We decided to have it be on so folks would find out about the feature, and would then be able to turn it off if they do not like it. Once off, it is forever off, which did not seem like much of an extreme burden.
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Re: Flag Display Mode

aaalafayette
Administrator
To also help the discussion about new features, we are moving the change notes to the website: http://triplea-game.github.io/  (some background discussion: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/665)

We can add a section of upcoming pre-release features, so it'll be easier to see what is being added. In retrospect, the lay person looking through commit message and code diffs perhaps will not be so useful ( http://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/commits)
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Re: Flag Display Mode

aaalafayette
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Feature Request logged at:  http://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/684, primary discussion is moving there.
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Re: Flag Display Mode

aaalafayette
Administrator
In reply to this post by Cernel
To address a few points directly:

Cernel wrote
I wish some developers would not change default behaviours or reduce any options without at least asking and waiting some months
it's no longer necessary to wait months. We can finally change the game much more readily. Please note that we are talking about a feature that has not even been launched yet. The best part, we can still easily change it. Hence why months are not necessary, if something needs updating, we can do it and it won't be months turn-around time. Back when it took 2 weeks to do a release, a few weeks to do a game patch, and only one or two people could work at the game at the same time, then yes - months was the time frame for getting anything changed in the code.



Cernel wrote
especially when they have no serious mapmaking experience
Please avoid the value judgements. In addition, there is many aspects to the game, you do NOT have to be a master map maker to be able to identify and create a valuable contribution to the game. We have it now so you can update unit images without touching a line of XML, without knowing anything about the game. You could easily play BW and come up with a good game mechanics feature, or play some PBEM and come up with a good feature there. Of course more experience with different areas of the game is helpful.


Cernel wrote
But, generally speaking, you should never change the default behaviour nor reduce any options
No options were reduced here. Default behavior sometimes makes sense to change to take in new features. Whenever we do this, we will try hard to allow an obvious setting to turn off the feature in case you do not like it. It is a balance between evaluating what new players have grown accustomed too, even though it is an inferior game experience, vs how difficult it would be for new players to find the feature. In general shitty features are not accepted, so for the most part expect new features to be the default.


Cernel wrote
 clear widespread consensus on the changes.
Code reviews constitute consensus. Having 6~12 people all agree on one thing is a recipe to make sure we agree on just about nothing, and anything we do agree on, will take months. Please see:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
- http://bikeshed.com/
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Re: Flag Display Mode

aaalafayette
Administrator
In reply to this post by panguitch
panguitch wrote
Current prerelease has a new feature, "Flag Display Mode." Not sure when exactly this was introduced.

It's a nice feature to have. But I wish it defaulted to "none". It can be redundant with the unit images of some maps.

I'd prefer it be something that can be turned on if the additional visual cue is needed, rather than have it be something that needs to be turned off when it's not needed or is redundant or creates visual clutter.
@panguitch - when you turn it off, it stays off unless you turn it back on, right?
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Re: Flag Display Mode

ZjelcoP
In reply to this post by aaalafayette
aaalafayette wrote
Code reviews constitute consensus. Having 6~12 people all agree on one thing is a recipe to make sure we agree on just about nothing, and anything we do agree on, will take months. Please see:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
- http://bikeshed.com/
Nice reads! "The Duck Technique"
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Re: Flag Display Mode

panguitch
In reply to this post by aaalafayette
aaalafayette wrote
@panguitch - when you turn it off, it stays off unless you turn it back on, right?
Yes, it stays off. I do like the idea of the feature. In fact, there are situations in my Greyhawk Wars map where it may be useful.

I just prefer it as an option rather than a default, since it isn't universally beneficial for all maps.

I understand the desire to put new features in front of peoples' faces, as opposed to hiding them in the text menus (I'm still discovering things in the text menus that have been around for years...). But as discussed here https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/665 I think this can be achieved with UI rather than a default that may be suboptimal.

(fully recognizing that it's only my opinion that this feature is suboptimal for some maps)

Greyhawk Wars
TripleA in the original Dungeons & Dragons world

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Re: Flag Display Mode

m3tan
OT but where can I download the latest pre-release version?
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Re: Flag Display Mode

aaalafayette
Administrator
@m3tan
http://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases

@Cernel
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh, you did strike a small nerve though. This type of thread conversation is actually exactly what we want, and is a good thing. After playtesting the country flags feature myself, I saw some issues with it. For sure some maps it's not a good feature, for others it's much more valuable - depends on the map.

In general though,  new features need discussion, context, and advice on how we can improve them. Do note that now things are much less cast in stone as compared to before hand. Not only can we modify things more easily, but we can also pull features back with much less trouble as well. For example, I updated the confirmation dialogs to default to 'no' to avoid space bar from 'auto-confirming' political actions. This turned out to be a bad thing, where most dialogs you really want to default to yes  (for example, "do you want to bombard", answer is almost always yes). After looking at how that played, that code update was turned back without much trouble.

Before we do the next official release, we will allow some time for folks to play test the latest pre-release and give their feedback. The trick to it all is to stay constructive and positive - we are all on the same team after all, this is a large community and it takes many of us to keep it running as well as it does.
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Re: Flag Display Mode

Frostion
In reply to this post by panguitch
panguitch wrote
(fully recognizing that it's only my opinion that this feature is suboptimal for some maps)
I think I share your opinion totally. I have not tried the feature, only seen a screen shot of it. None of the maps that I have made needs flags on units as far as I am concerned. A new map I got in development right now actually has nation markers attached to every unit needing it. If units are indistinguishable or has ownership confusion related to them, then I think the units pictures are lacking something and should been changed graphic-wise.

I am not against this feature. It can maybe help some maps/future maps make units more distinguishable, but the feature should definitely be turn off as standard as it might scew up the visuals of some maps.

Even better, why not have map property files force the feature on/off, while still allowing the player to re-set it to whatever he want after the map has set the recommend setting. This would ensure different maps getting their intended visuals displayed right.

Speaking of this, different settings being temporary turned on/off by the properties file would be a nice feature for map makers.
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Re: Flag Display Mode

Frostion
In reply to this post by panguitch
I have now tried this feature … it looks horrible on my maps. It should be deactivated/set to none by default. But, it is still a nice feature for some maps. I especially like the big flags behind the units