Air Battles

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Air Battles

Veqryn
Administrator
Lets assume that the engine were to allow air battles before both bombing raids and normal ground/sea battles.

Lets say you are both going to bomb a factory AND also have a land battle in the same territory (do not ask why).

Should there by separate air battles for both the bombing and the normal battles?  

Or just 1 combined air battle, followed by you choosing which surviving air units go to which type of battle (bombing or normal ground battle)?


I don't want to code it both ways, since that would be a major f-ing pain, so we have to pick one.

Example with separate:

You attempt a bombing raid on karelia with 1 bomber and 1 fighter as escort.  
You also attempt a ground assault with 2 infantry and 1 fighter.
Enemy has 1 fighter.

If enemy chooses to intercept the bombing raid, it will be his intercepting fighter vs your bomber and escorting fighter.
Regardless of whether the enemy shoots down your fighter/bombers or not, he will not participate in the ground battle at all later.

If enemy chooses to intercept the ground assault, it will be his ground-intercepting fighter vs your ground assaulting fighter.
If the enemy survives the air battle, his fighter will participate in the ground battle.



Example with combined:

You attempt a bombing raid on karelia with 1 bomber and 1 fighter as escort.  
You also attempt a ground assault with 2 infantry and 1 fighter.
Enemy has 1 fighter.

Before either bombing or ground assault begin, there is an air battle pitting 1 enemy fighter vs your 1 bomber and 2 fighters.

Any fighters that survive (yours and/or enemy's) will participate in the ground battle.  
Any bombers that survive will be asked whether they want to participate in the ground battle or the bombing raid. (or maybe the bombers are forced into the choice you made during combat move.)



I could really go either way on this.  
If when I try to code it, one is easier, I might just override any consensus we reach.

let me know what you think.
thx,
veqryn
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Re: Air Battles

Cappy/ Penguins
Your bombers should be forced into the detail they were intended to do first. The fighters should be different than bombers in this regard. This is my opinion.

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Re: Air Battles

hepster
I would vote for the defined chosen separate roles.  That way you'd have to choose which type of attack you are committing and defending against.  But in either case the attacker and defender should only be permitted to have the surviving units participate in in the ground battle when that was where they were sent when the choice was made.   There should be no ability to have units flip-flop between the roles they perform.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Air Battles

Zim Xero
I'm for which ever system Strong AI is going to play along with, but with a preference for one combined air battle... requiring role designation before a combined air battle, after which, surviving craft continue on with their mission.  (method #2)

Note that at a future date, there might be the desire to add the role of AIR CAP, allowing a fighter to fight in airbattle only, possibly with an improved dice.
'thats the way it is' makes it neither desireable nor inevitable
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Re: Air Battles

SuperNova
In reply to this post by Veqryn
I suppose I prefer the separate option.  And yes, the bombers and fighters would have to chose their targets during the Combat Movement Phase.

Sounds good!  

Whenever I play a 'well known board game' , we always use an Air Combat House rule:  AA Fire first.  Then Attacking and Defending Fighters hit on a 2 or less, Attacking Bombers on a 1.  Combat lasts for 1 round only.  Then the surviving bombers hit their targets and fly home.  Obviously in TripleA it would be different, but any form of Air Combat would be a nice addition.
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Re: Air Battles

eurofabio
In reply to this post by Veqryn
I prefer the combined option.

First of all, looks simpler than the separated in terms of rules and coding.

The AI don't have to choose between try to destroy the bomber or try to help in the ground assault. It will be very hard to AI to decide that, specially because the damage of the bomb raids can be different in each game.

And one more reason: playing by pbem, just before any air battle, the attacker should talk with the defender to check if he wants to stop the bomber raid or stop the ground assault.

So my vote is for combined air battle.

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Re: Air Battles

Edwin van der Wal
seperate air battles... defined when leaving the base... (bombers who can do both roles take different ammo for different missions) -- fighters commited to intercepting either the ground-attack bombers or strategic bombers shouldn't participate in the ground combat.
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Re: Air Battles

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Veqryn
i can't really tell which would have been more difficult to do, but combined would have meant me creating new dialogs and ui elements, and i hate that

so i went with keeping stuff separate


here is how it works

you can now have air battles before normal battles

strat bombing air battles the defender gets asked if you want to commit and how many air to commit

normal battle air battles the defender can commit any air units in the territory that are not already committed to the strat bombing air battle.  any air units not committed to the normal battle, will die if the territory is conquered.

you can now scramble to any potential air battle, including scrambling to defend against strat bombing or a normal attack

you can now specify number of rounds that an air battle will last (default = 1)

you can now specify number of rounds that a normal battle will last (default = -1 = infinity)

allowed both attacker and defender to withdraw from an air battle.  it will completely remove them from combat and also remove them from any subsequent combats in the territory.  if the defender loses the territory, the withdrawn air will die.

after the air battle is over, any surviving air will participate in the normal battle that follows


so with this you could have a 1 round of air combat before each battle, thereby giving the side with air superiority a chance to inflict some damage before the main battle starts.  

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Re: Air Battles

Edwin van der Wal
Sounds perfect Veq.
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Re: Air Battles

Veqryn
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Veqryn
Because I have to support 3 rules sets (Global 1940 2nd edition, 1914, and my own kooky ideas), it is worth clarifying who can intercept/escort/participate in air battles


There are actually 4 types of battles right now:

Air Raids (an air battle before a bombing raid)

Bombing raids (strategic bombing)

Air Battles (an air battle before a normal battle)

Normal Battles (land or sea, doesn't matter)



Any unit with either "Escort" or "Strategic Bomber" properties may be an Attacker in an Air Raid.

Any unit with "Interceptor" may be a defender in an Air Raid.

Only units with "Strategic Bomber" may attack in a Bombing Raid.

Any unit that is not part of an Air Raid and has "canAirBattle", can be an Attacker in an Air battle.

Any unit that is not part of an Air Raid and has "canAirBattle", can be an Defender in an Air battle.

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Re: Air Battles

hepster
The first parts of your explanation seem to make perfect sense.  They seem to cover all the situations that can arise during the different types of battles.

1)  The only way I can see the need for any Air units to be able to "sneak" past normal combat or interception is if you want the engine to be able to handle some type of stealth aircraft unit.  This might be a nice feature for any modern or futuristic type scenarios.

2)  Since we have limited the ability of units to function in the role of escort or intercept in T.W.W. I think it is crucial that the map maker have the ability to determine which aircraft can participate in which functions.  This might also be important if  something like a spotter aircraft or recon aircraft were to be implemented into a game.  Any such units may not be intended to participate in the battles themselves as they could represent a fodder unit if they were to be included.  Better to have a selectable option rather than a mandatory participation.

All of this is getting me very excited.
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”― Rudyard Kipling