Age of Tribes

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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
OK. Version 0.9.9 is now ready to test. The finalization of this map is near. I (or we  ) are running out of good ideas for improvements, adjustments and corrections, and the map is quite playable and fun as it is. I will not attempt to release the map until a new version of TripleA is released though. This is because the hard AI in version TripleA 1.8.0.9 has too many unit shopping issues with this map. The newest development version of the AI does not have these issues, thanks to Redrums nice work.

Further development on this map will probably be slow from now on and up until release. But there is still open for more testing feedback, first impressions and error reporting. Anything to make the release version better will be great.

(Also, I think I have spent a lot of time on this map – and now I have begun working on a new and totally different map project  and this will probably steal my time from now on.)
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
I have been meaning to upload this save for a while - AOT_New_Mortar_Game.tsvg

I really like the new mortars, but there a few issues. One is that the mortar rounds can be taken as a casualty when defending, making mortars oddly good at defense. One way to fix this would be moving the end turn phase to the beginning of the turn. This would also make player collect income at the beginning of the turns, which I think makes more sense anyways.

Another suggestion would be to make mortars cost 36 but their rounds deal 4 damage. This is mostly to lower the variance on mortar rounds, right now its really high and it can swing a game drastically if one player's mortars all hit while the opponent's miss.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
Thanks for the testing. I will take a look at your save. I just played the map with some friends a few days ago, and we saw the same flaw in the Mortar-Bombardment and the Rocket from the Rocket-Launcher unit. I have already made changes to these units. But, they are not currently what you suggest.

I can see the logic in your suggestions, but first I want to test the new and current changes, and that is to have the rounds have not only attack power 2, but also defense power 2. (the rockets have 3) The rounds will now strike incoming enemies alongside other defending units, and kamikaze-die while doing it. So it’s basically 1 times 2 defense power in exchange for 1 defense HP. I guess it makes the unit a bit weaker? A not so wanted consequence of my system is that the first player of two players who throws a bombardment on the enemy also triggers all enemy’s ammunition to basically self destruct, as it kamikazes the incoming bombardment.

I can see what you mean about Mortars-Bombardments being a bit weak with attack power 2, but I always feared making them too strong and too expensive. I also thought they would be better implemented as a fun unit to play around with and maybe get some lucky kills, also out into the water.

If you would like to test the new system, then I would advise you to play the new version of the Cold War map, and do it as Brittonic or Slavic, who are the two “big shots” of the map. I made these two players more powerful on the map to give it a little comparison to the real world cold war, with red vs. blue and some smaller allied nations who were dependent on the big nations.
 
You will then be able to test all the "high age" units, the rockets (they are very similar to mortar), and finally the new “give PU to small allies system”. That is if you have the time for it. The new version is ready to download (many files are changed so no XML only download).
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
An extra 2/12 roll is far less valuable than 1 HP on defense (especially when paired with a large army) so this makes mortars much weaker (as they should be). This fix is reasonable but the defending munitions wasting themselves is really bothersome. This could possibly be considered a bug, there needs to be a way to adjust when munitions appear.

Would you mind posting a savegame of Cold War? I keep trying to get into this map but the units don't seem very well balanced, I always just build massive amounts of air units and whoever loses fewer planes to nukes seems to win. I do like the dynamic of small weak powers supporting superpowers though
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
Here is a savegame where mortars played a big role. East surrenders. Brittonic being able to build mortars safely in Sweden guarantees that they control the baltic sea - AoT_MortarGame02.tsvg

I really don't think leaving the mortars as is a good solution. It leads to silly situations, like suicide offloading a unit by sea every turn just to kill mortar rounds. It also means that a single friendly mortar can shut down a large number of enemy mortars completely.

You could move the end turn phase to the start of the turn. This means that my mortars will produce rounds before movement and not exist during enemy turns. This also means collect income at the start of the turn, not the end, this will affect the first turn quite a bit but shouldn't impact the game too much.

The bad part would be that at the start of every turn, we get a box that says "End of Turn Report". I do not know of a way to change this.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
Its possible to remove the develop units from cluttering the battle calculator. Here is an XML where I did it, just for britton in the very beginning- Age_of_Tribes_BCalc.xml

Its just two added triggers and an added production frontier. I did some brief testing an it all works well. If you like, I can do it for the other nations

As it is right now, the battlecalc will leave the most recently developed units out if none have been produced. This can be fixed by adding two lines of code to every develop-weapon trigger (I did this for forts just for Brittonic). Another potential benefit of this system is we could make rockets and mortar rounds always available in the battle calc, even if none are on the field
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
This post was updated on .
Regarding the “suicidal defending mortar rounds and rockets” issue:

I have now used many hours trying to figure out a solution that would fix it. But whatever I try, a new issue always pops up with the solution. Here are some of the solution elements I have had in consideration:

Move end turn phase to the start of the turn
I would like to avoid this, as it would be silly to see the “end of turn popup” at the start of the player turn.

"Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire" value="true"
True prevents the ammo from self destructing, but in that case the ammo seems to be selectable as a casualty if the player is attacked. So at the moment it is false, and the ammo is suicidal when defending.

IsInfrastructure
I fiddled around with this, to prevent the defending ammo from participating in combat,  and tried having ammo be infrastructure on a permanent basis or triggering it TRUE during combat and FALSE after.
A problem here is that both sides on the battle are affected by the change to an ammo unit type (PoS2.xml: “unitProperty changes are done for ALL players who use that unitType”. Also, if this is part of a solution, then strange situations like the attacked player removing his Mortar unit as casualty, resulting to him only having the ammo unit in his turn. (That would have to have it movement neutralized.)

givesMovement
I also fiddle with this feature, imagining that the Mortar unit and Rocket-Launcher unit could make the ammo fly. But it seems this cannot be a part of the sullution. The big problem is that the feature only seems to work if the unit given movement already has minimum 1 movement. So, “option name="movement" value="0" does not receive any bonus.

Here is a bunch of other elements that I incorporated in different failed solutions:
option name="canNotMoveDuringCombatMove"
Player Attachments: "suicideAttackTargets" (All the normal non-ammo and non-infrastructure units)
property name="Kamikaze Airplanes"
property name="Use Kamikaze Suicide Attacks"
property name="Kamikaze Suicide Attacks Done By Current Territory Owner"
property name="Kamikaze Suicide Attacks Only Where Battles Are"


A possible solution that might work and change the game would be to make the ammo units work like the nukes. That is: Move the ammo to enemy –> enemy captures –> turns into an explosion -> After the attacking playe’rs turn is over, a trigger made for every single territory removes the explosion (owned by the attacked player) and places an “AI” owned enemy explosion unit -> That unit then attacks the player.

I would really like any ideas and opinions on this is a hard nutt to crack :-)

Regarding your Age_of_Tribes_BCalc.xml
I am on my way out the door, so I will have to look at it later today, and see what the changes are.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
In reply to this post by crazy_german
As I can see it, you have added the following: (is that right?)
crazy_germans XML wrote
<productionFrontier name="production_Brittonic_Combat">
            <frontierRules name="buyCaveman"/>
            <frontierRules name="buyCamp"/>
        </productionFrontier>




        <attatchment name="conditionAttachmentFrontierSwap" attatchTo="AI" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.RulesAttachment" type="player">
            <option name="turns" value="1-+"/>
        </attatchment>
        <attatchment name="triggerAttachment_Frontier_Swap_1a" attatchTo="Brittonic" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TriggerAttachment" type="player">
            <option name="conditions" value="conditionAttachmentFrontierSwap"/>
            <option name="players" value="Brittonic"/>
            <option name="when" value="after:BrittonicPurchase"/>
            <option name="frontier" value="production_Brittonic_Combat"/>
        </attatchment>

        <attatchment name="triggerAttachment_Frontier_Swap_1b" attatchTo="Brittonic" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.TriggerAttachment" type="player">
            <option name="conditions" value="conditionAttachmentFrontierSwap"/>
            <option name="players" value="Brittonic"/>
            <option name="when" value="before:BrittonicPurchase"/>
            <option name="frontier" value="production_Brittonic"/>
        </attatchment>



            <option name="productionRule" value="production_Brittonic_Combat:buyFort"/>
            <option name="productionRule" value="production_Brittonic_Combat:-buyCamp"/>
I don’t use the Ctrl+B battle calculator that much, so I never thought about the Develop-Weapons units showing there. But I can see that it is a good thing to get rid of them in the battle calculator.

Do I understand it correctly when I say that your system will produce two parallel and simultaneous purchase frontiers per player? And that one is used during purchase and the other all the rest of the time? That’s clever

But it is a lot of work.  Do you know how to insert the two lines in every single development trigger in an easy way? I don’t mind you doing it, that would be helpfull, but I can also do it myself. Or you can do it in the Age_of_Tribes.xml, and I can do it in the two others? They need a bit of “cleanup” anyway. They are ingame saves of the original XML, and therefore a bit messy.

(Any work done should be to the version 0.1.3, and it seems you already did that. Then it could be renamed 0.1.4.)
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
You are correct, just switch between 2 frontiers.

I might be able to write a script that does all the updates quickly, I'll see. Depends on how neatly formatted the XML is, from what I have seen it looks pretty clean.

On the suicide units, I think you could make a thread asking for a dev opinion. This can be considered a bug, there is no way for the feature to work as desired.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
@crazy_german
I might be able to write a script that does all the updates quickly
Any news on this? What program would be able to use a “script” to make these changes? The most advanced program I have been using is TextCrawler. It can only change phrases/Words in renamed XML to txt files, not insert individual and unique lines into specific places.

On the suicide units; I will maybe take a look into the original maps with kamikaze airplanes and see how they work. I guess if they work by 10 kamikaze planes just kamikaze-dying if a single enemy unit enters their territory, it would be weird.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
I tried and failed. This morning I got another idea I'm trying out now. I often use Excel, which probably isn't the most efficient tool but its what I am familiar with.

What technologies do weird stuff? For example Barrage Balloons do not remove any units, but anti-air removes 2, are there other examples of this?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
This post was updated on .
Well as I see it the ”normal technology” is the tech that when placed does the following…

• +1 new unit type (Opens up purchase option of 1 new fighting unit.)
• -1 old unit type (Removes purchase option of 1 old fighting unit type.)
• +1 develop tech (Adds 1 new develop-tech.)
• -1 develop tech (Removes 1 develop-tech that was just developed.)

I understand that you are asking for develop triggers that does something that deviates from the above.

I don’t know if it means anything, but the “Base” building development removes buildings on the map. I guess you don’t need this info as all the develop triggers removes some units on the map, like the scroll like “develop” units that the player has placed.

I also noted that not every development trigger has the 4 (or less) rules in the same order as above.

I will try to list all develop-tech that does deviate from the above by missing one of the 4 or having more than 4 rules:

The root of the tech tree:


"unitPresence" value="Develop-Axeman"
• buyAxeman
• -buyCaveman
• buyDevelop-Boat
buyDevelop-Spearman
buyDevelop-Chariot
buyDevelop-Catapult
buyDevelop-Slinger
• -buyDevelop-Axeman

Sea units:


unitPresence" value="Develop-Boat"
• buyBoat
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Galley
• -buyDevelop-Boat

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Submarine"
• buySubmarine
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Fleet-Carrier
• -buyDevelop-Submarine

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Fleet-Carrier"
• buyFleet-Carrier
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-Fleet-Carrier

Infantry:


"unitPresence" value="Develop-Shock-Trooper"
• buyShock-Trooper
• -buyInfantry
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------

• -buyDevelop-Shock-Trooper

Cavalry:


"unitPresence" value="Develop-Chariot"
• buyChariot
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Horseman
• -buyDevelop-Chariot

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Attack-Helicopter"
• buyAttack-Helicopter
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-War-Robot
• -buyDevelop-Attack-Helicopter

"unitPresence" value="Develop-War-Robot"
• buyWar-Robot
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-War-Robot

Artillery:


"unitPresence" value="Develop-Catapult"
• buyCatapult
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Ballista
• -buyDevelop-Catapult

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Battle-Mech"
• buyBattle-Mech
• -buyBattle-Tank
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-Battle-Mech

Support:


"unitPresence" value="Develop-Slinger"
• buySlinger
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Bowman
• -buyDevelop-Slinger

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Mortar"
• buyMortar
• -buyCrossbowman
• buyDevelop-Barrage-Balloon
buyDevelop-Observation-Balloon
• -buyDevelop-Mortar

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Barrage-Balloon"
• buyBarrage-Balloon
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Anti-Air
• -buyDevelop-Barrage-Balloon

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Anti-Air"
• buyAnti-Air
• -buyBarrage-Balloon
-buyMortar
• buyDevelop-Rocket-Launcher
• -buyDevelop-Anti-Air

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Rocket-Launcher"
• buyRocket-Launcher
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-Rocket-Launcher

Air and Nukes:


"unitPresence" value="Develop-Observation-Balloon"
• buyObservation-Balloon
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Warplane
• -buyDevelop-Observation-Balloon

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Fighter"
• buyFighter
• -buyWarplane
• buyDevelop-Bomber
buyDevelop-Air-Transport
• -buyDevelop-Fighter

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Bomber"
• buyBomber
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Jet-Fighter
buyDevelop-Nuke
• -buyDevelop-Bomber

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Nuke"
• buyNuke
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Missile-Silo
• -buyDevelop-Nuke

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Missile-Silo"
• buyMissile-Silo
• -buyNuke
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-Missile-Silo

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Air-Transport"
• buyAir-Transport
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-Air-Transport

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Attack-Drone"
• buyAttack-Drone
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-Attack-Drone

Bases:


"unitPresence" value="Develop-Missile-Shield":
• buyMissile-Shield
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• buyDevelop-Energy-Shield
• -buyDevelop-Missile-Shield

"unitPresence" value="Develop-Energy-Shield"
• buyEnergy-Shield
• --------- (No old unit type is removed from production) ---------
• --------- (No new development option given) ---------
• -buyDevelop-Energy-Shield
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
Age_of_Tribes_BCalc.xml

Finished it, only took a couple find and replace functions. For some reason Axeman wasn't working and I had to do it by hand. No crashing after brief playtesting. If any errors exist it should only affect the battle calculator.

I did not modify any of the AI-Barbarian Triggers. Also, rockets and mortars should be available in the calc once unlocked. Version number has been updated to 0.1.4
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
Woohoo!
I will try out a game and try to implement it into the othe two xmls. Thx a lot.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
In reply to this post by crazy_german
It took a lot of time to clean up the three XMLs. They are now much more orderly composed. The new exclusion of “develop units” in the battle calculator is now also polished and done... Thx to the big helping hand. There were some smaller issues with the first v0.1.4 file though:

• There were about 5 instances of double lines that created error popups, but I removed them and now it is all fine.
• The “caveman” did not get removed from the combat/battle calculator frontier, this is also fixed.
• I made the changes you made to all the nations to the AI-Barbarians. No one might play them, but one can still do a battle calculation against them.

I have maybe not tested all three games/XML "fully", but at first glance they seem to work as intended. Nice!

EDIT: v0.1.4 can now be downloaded … also just the XMLs.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
I'm happy to help, I'll try the new downloads. I really want to try a game from the original start point and see how developing mortars will impact it. Here is a save game for the Renaissance start - Age_of_TribesWesternVictory.tsvg

This was a very long game, I kept playing as East because I almost wiped out all 3 of Germanic, Romanic and Celtic, though I actually think Britton could have won by itself at the end. West won rather easily despite making more mistakes early on, particularly the Celts switching from navy to land before Hattic's navy was sunk.

Mortars have a very large impact on the balance of this map. Because Britton controls Sweden in the beginning and can place mortars safely turn 01, there is no possible way for Baltic to contest the Baltic Sea. Once Britton has ships in the Baltic things get really bad for Baltic and Slavic, defending takes far more resources than attacking along coasts. Would you be interested in me creating a revised unit set up? In particular, I think the start needs less forts and castles and Hattic's units moved around
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
This post was updated on .
I will take a look at your save game soon.
Yes, if you play from primeval age, then you might look at the mortar experience with fresh eyes. Though you might not reach the mortar development before you are defeated ;)

Regarding the Baltic and Sweden on the original primeval start. If I play Baltic as the only human controlled player against the AI, I think it is generally hard to muster enough ships and men to invade and hold Sweden. I feel I must use a lot of PUs, maybe all PUs, on just getting some land and killing wildlife and barbarians. When I reached a point where I start to get connected to the germanic enemies, then I start to use all my PUs on defense against them. I normally can just look at Norway/Sweden slowly being captured by Brittonic. It is kind of the same for the Romanic, they also have a hard time mustering a fleet to take islands and Africa before Hattic grabs it all. Maybe +15 PU to AI is too much?
The situation would of course be totally different if it was human vs human. The humans could coordinate who spent PUs on making fleets and who did battle on the mainland.

Do you really think mortar is that strong? From Sweden it is only an attack 2 each turn against potential ships in the sea, plus it cost PUs to build and sucks if/when Baltic managed to build 1 or 2 ships and invade from the mainland. Plus the Baltic ships might have bombardment. We could try to make it and the bombardment ammo 1 att/1def, but then it would also be so week thatit became useless.

I would very much like to se another example of the renaissance unit setup. You could edit the game and save as xml. Then I could load that file.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
I'm think that Baltic is the hardest nation to play, because you face 100% of britton's troops and most of Germany's until Slavic can arrive to help, but by that time Britton will be invading slavic

In primeval start, I usually have Celtic go 100% mediteranean, it will easily take Africa before Hattic. Celtic can also rush to put a fort on Sicily as quickly as possible, if Hattic can't immediately retake you are in a great position. This means that Germanic can fall to Slavic, however the more Slav/Balt advance the larger their unprotected coastline is which lets Britton make very efficient use of resources.

I don't mortars are too strong they are rather well done IMO. However, they really benefit Brittonic more than Baltic because of geography. If the exploit where you can kill mortar rounds by attacking with a single unit were removed than a mortar defense might work the the Balts, as is they just get crushed by an invasion and a naval arms race isn't viable as a defense due to enemy mortars. Britton can build ships out of range of enemy mortars, Baltic cannot.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
“Germanic can fall to Slavic, however the more Slav/Balt advance the larger their unprotected coastline is which lets Britton make very efficient use of resources.”
I see this as a huge AI problem, and have noticed this as well. I can’t believe this is not affecting other maps also. I guess humans would protect the coastline and home front more, and maybe even buy some ships and attempt to invade Sweden.

I can’t load your renaissance savegame. I get this long error. I guess it is an issue with me having a newer map version then your savegame.

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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

ZjelcoP
Had the same issue few days back. Has to do with different engine-versions.
Probably one of you uses a prerelease...
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