Age of Tribes

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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

redrum
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@Frostion - The contested territories that can be created by the 5 turn limit just seem awkward. Especially since the barbs/animals just sit there so end up attacking your units back. It might be worth exploring getting rid of clubman and just starting with axeman. This sort of avoids the small 1/12 hit chance battles and makes the early game a little less random as right now attacking with say 5 clubman all rolling at 1/12 ends up with really random results. It really seems to make the first couple rounds matter a good deal on dice luck.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Cernel
I always thought that there should be a menu option default in triplea for autokeep rolling all rounds, except only the first one (and the one before the last one, if you have a finite number of battle rounds (because you may want to retrat before getting stuck)), ending in absolutely no casualties on both sides.

Reason for this to exist and being default is that if at a point in time X you had a situation and took a decision A, you shound not be allowed to take adecision B in another point in time Y having the exact same conditions as the point before, because this makes no sense.

Reason for being allowed at all to not have it, by a menu option, would be only that in traditional TA you are allowed to attack with 1 cruisers against 1 cruiser and decide to retreat after 3 rounds or whatever of battle, because for some reasons you changed your mind about that move or lost your heart.

Rationally, if you attack with N cruisers against 1 cruiser, you should be allowed to retreat after the first round because other battles may have changed your decision or maybe (if N is bigger than 1) you attacked with the aim to retreat, in order to reach a position not otherwise possible to get to (the so called teleport); but if you decided to keep on fighting on round 2 with your N cruisers against 1 cruiser, then you should be obliged to keep on fighting till anyone receives at least 1 casualty (so, if N=1 and battle rounds = infinite you should be asked to retreat only the first round, and then all the battle is immediately resolved till the end, not asking to retreat anymore). This would speed up 1/12 lone caveman vs lone caveman battles dramatically and be totally rational, removing clicks that should no brainer.
History plays dice
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Frostion
On that huge list of changes - The defense drop for bases might be too harsh though. I like everything else.

On original territories - I don't think original territories feature is an issue, just some of the specific choices are odd, with the West coast of turkey being the best example. Salluvia is another example, Celts probably get it more often than Romans. I would suggest making these have a neutral original owner, only assign a tribal owner to territories that are directly bordering the capital. Let the alternate history decide who owns what.

On barrage balloons - sorry my first comment wasn't very constructive. The issue is this unit is really weird to me, i had never heard of those cable weapons. Right now it rolls 1 dice on a 1 (1x1), an effective power the same as a caveman. So instead give it 1x7, 2x4, or 3x3; these would all give power output similar to other units of the same tech level. With that said, this unit just doesn't have a very large niche, because its an anti-air weapon in a time when air units are mild in strength. It doesn't help against bombers either.
I don't know how much you want to change, but I would totally revamp the barrage balloon as a more typical zeppelin unit. Make it fly, give it 2 movement. Let it support artillery the same as the observation balloon (let it benefit sea units as well). Give it the option to bomb (but very weak) and a weak cable attack (1x3 maybe?)  

On Hattic's long walk - A human played Hattic should develop boats on turn 6 every game. It is just so much faster to transport directly into the Balkans. It would be great if the AI knew this!

On airplane movement - The increased costs might help but I still advise you to lower some of the ranges. Air transport in particular. I guess you want the fighters to outspeed the helicopters so they do need that extra range. Bombing certainly needs some changes. Either less damage, more HP for bases, or both.

On gamechangers - Air units will always be a game changer. Nukes have a huge impact. Rockets seem cool but I haven't used them yet. Blitz doesn't change that much, I think you could give it to cavalry (or at least Knights and Carabiners). So far things don't change that much when industrial age units come in because the late renaissance is very defense biased (the change to bases will definitely change that)

Could you post the progress on 0.9.2 now? I might play tonight

PS-the extremely low power of early units (and extremely high power of late units) are issues. In particular combat in the first couple turns has enormous variance, combined with mammoths this makes luck a very large factor. The solutions I can see are
     -having unit stats get changed when new ages begin
     -rather than giving new units increased stats, give them lower costs (a little bit of both)
Both of which have issues. I would just leave this be for now since I don't see an easy solution.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Frostion
tooltips.properties
Here is a file I made. It replaces the descriptions of the Develop-units. Instead of showing the default generated properties, it shows a description of the unit to be unlocked. In detail, it shows

Unit Image (Right now gray for all nations but that can be changed)
What is unlocked. What is no longer available.
Land/Air/Sea unit. Cost of the unit
Attack- Defense- Move-
Special abilities
Transport Cost/Capacity

Put the tooltip in the map folder. Copy and paste the AI-Barbarians unit images into the /doc/images folder for the images to show. If you like this addition I can write a full version that routes to the correct color unit image for all the nations. Sample below



Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

redrum
Administrator
@crazy_german - That's awesome. +1 for doing that for all develop units.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by crazy_german
@crazy german
Wow!  I didn’t know one could do that. That looks great.
Could you post the tooltips.properties file in a zip? I can’t download it as it is posted now. It just opens the file in a new browser window.
- Maybe the grey unit color is ok for every nation in the tooltip? (Would be easier and the unit looks "locked")
- Maybe it would be nice to have the right color on the unit? (but then I guess a ton of images should be duplicated in the /doc/images folder.)
- Maybe there should be no picture at all? (I mean, then it would be a nice little surprise how the unit looks like.)
But, I really like the tooltip idea and will try to use it somehow.

“If you like this addition I can write a full version that routes to the correct color unit image for all the nations.” I like it! And you are welcome to make a new file with whatever you think is nicer than what you already made. Or just a sample that I can finish.

 I am working/testing the 0.9.2. But it takes some time and I am constantly editing the xml. I can’t set a release date, but I know that I want it to be playable and working, so that any new input can be on the new version. And hopefully also give a nice play experience while testing.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Cernel
Yes. You can also have the whole tooltip as a fancy image or, better, configure it as an image with background etc. by, for example, using HTML tabs and adding background etc.; of course the background etc. source image must be inside doc/images. It just works like whatever notification. For example, pulicat in CW had image only as victory notification and stuff (tho I would suggest keeping it modifiable by using background image under text, instead of just a single set-in-stone image).
This may be particularly helpful in maps using multiple resources. I would always suggest having tooltips with image display of the resources needed for the single units, in those cases: makes much easyer to get aquainted with the system. For example, in my MEAD this is the tooltip for the castle:



As being tooltips, they will show up in Help/Unit help as well (tho I dislike that feature, and think that the mapmakers should fully and better cover all unit info in the Notes, already).

Also, even if the unit is the same, you can personalize the tooltip for each different player.
History plays dice
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Frostion
Here it is in a zipped folder
tooltips.zip
Frostion wrote
- Maybe the grey unit color is ok for every nation in the tooltip? (Would be easier and the unit looks "unlocked")
- Maybe it would be nice to have the right color on the unit? (but then I guess a ton of images should be duplicated in the /doc/images folder.)
- Maybe there should be no picture at all? (I mean, then it would be a nice little surprise how the unit looks like.)
But, I really like the tooltip idea and will try to use it somehow.
I think it looks better with a image. If you want to use the same image for all nations, could you make a darker grey or even a black set of units? I think that would look good
Frostion wrote
“If you like this addition I can write a full version that routes to the correct color unit image for all the nations.” I like it! And you are welcome to make a new file with whatever you think is nicer than what you already made. Or just a sample that I can finish.
I think that version is complete, though there could be some errors or stats that you changed.
Frostion wrote
 I am working/testing the 0.9.2. But it takes some time and I am constantly editing the xml. I can’t set a release date, but I know that I want it to be playable and working, so that any new input can be on the new version. And hopefully also give a nice play experience while testing.
If you put an updated version up by this weekend I'll play that version. I think you might be better off with small changes, so we can isolate and tell what is good and what isn't. For example I think the decrease to base defense might be too much, but the rest of what you did looks good.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Frostion
So a friend and I have set aside some time tomorrow to play Age of Tribes. If you post an updated version before then, we will play that version.

BTW, I want to edit the tooltips file so that the to be developed unit faces the correct direction. I think showing unlocked units something like this would be cool

Thoughts?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
I have made the changes. I will opload the new version when I wake up tomorrow. I am sleeping at the moment
PS: I also modified your tooltips file.  I used the gray units and it looks cool. Good night.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
In reply to this post by crazy_german
Version is 0.9.2 now ready to test.
I imagine there might be a few issues - Hopefully no game crashing issues - but I have not had that much time to test this version.
ATM I don’t see a problem with players building a lot of bases. The bases are removed from the map as time goes by, and in the endgame all bases can also be bombed to pieces. The IA could and would be very set back if it lost its few and very pricy bases, so it is also good for the AI compatibility to keep them cheap.
Please comment on everything, also stuff that has been discussed before. I especially find it hard to set a price on special units like Energy Shields, Nukes, Subs and so on. Also on the strength of the barbarians and the plague. I don’t want them to ruin the game completely, just for them to be a nuisance.

@crazy_german
Dark units are interesting, but right now I have settled with grey. I use the same tool tip pictures (same links) in the notes file ATM. I have modified the tooltips file you sent, and I really appreciated that I had a base file to work with. That saved me a lot of work.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
In reply to this post by Cernel
@Cernel
Nice idea to have the total resource price listed graphically. I think that your resources pictures are a bit small though. I can see that a tower/castle = 1 something + 1 something, but not what it is. Maybe if I played MEAD it would be more clear.

If you have been working a lot with tooltip displaying, then you must have thought the same as I: It would be nice if the tooltip pop up would remain visible and not vanish after 2-3 seconds. It would be cool if it remained on screen until one moved the mouse cursor? Is this something that can be set in the client program game settings by players?
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
I agree that tooltips displaying longer. BTW, the only two changed files are tooltips and XML, right? You could just put those two files up so the whole thing doesn't need to be re-downloaded. By the way, the game notes you have a "Bombardment" section that should probably be renamed "Bombing". Everything else looks good
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

redrum
Administrator
@Frostion - Ran all HardAI game til the end with no crashes: Age_of_Tribes_v92_Hard_AI.tsvg

It went 49 rounds and seemed to favor the East as Britian still struggles and Rome seems to have a tough time since it doesn't go for north africa. Overall, balance and gameplay seems better. The obsoleting of units I think is a good idea but definitely hurts the AI since it doesn't see it coming.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Cernel
In reply to this post by Frostion
Nope, no way.

Yah, tooltips are not functional to learn stuff, because they disappear soon; only to briefly double check what you already know.
History plays dice
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Frostion
Save game of human v human - AoT_0.tsvg
West surrenders after 25 Rounds. A quick summary
Britton's massive success seems to do little for its alliance. Germanic was totally defeated by Slavic. Celtic was once able to put great pressure on Hellas with a powerful navy. However, after losing its navy it was forced to fall back and lose control of Africa and its islands. Romanic had a great land battle with Greece, eventually lost largely due to Hattic's navy

Baltic battled Britton and Germanic, despite losing at sea it survives it can hold out against Britton. Slavic became a superpower late game, though Britton briefly took the Slavic homeland Slavic remains extremely powerful. Hellenic attacked Rome and was able to send a few troops to annoy Germanic. Hattic had a huge naval faceoff with Celtic, eventually winning. Rome/Greece have a very hard time surviving if the opponent gets a naval advantage.

You didn't mention decreased tech costs in the post, but its a fantastic change, particularly cheap boats. The changes to bases are good. The large defense drop means that they are mostly just factories with a defensive side effect. Prior to spearmen being unlocked all units have more attack than defense so the game is very offense-biased, I do think that bases could have a little bit more defense. The units getting deleted works well and can encourage players to attack. I think the speed for it it just right.

Nature has a problem of being random and therefore negatively affecting balance. Hellinic capturing 4 mammoths instead of Germanic had a huge impact on the balance of power. An issue with a map having such a long play time is that these early battles can have such a long term impact.

The barbarians slowed the West down much more than the East I think. They annoyed Hattic quite a bit, but didn't have much impact there. In Scandinavia the barbarians were fairly strong and Britton had to defeat them before being able to pressure the East at all.

Specific Suggestions
-Develop catapult should cost 12 tech so you can get catapults on turn 7 if you want. I'm leaning towards archers being more useful than siege weapons (because defense is more scarce than offense)
-Support footmen upgrades should cost the same or even less than regular footmen upgrades
-I can't find much reason to buy develop-castles, because each tribe will have many camps built and it sucks to lose them. Germany purchased it because they had already lost everything and wanted a free unit. Rome built it to avoid having its own camps captured.

Questions for you
-Why East vs West? I'm curious
-Is there a particular reason you cut off Libya/Egypt from the map
-Cannon/Mortar are far too similar. Do you think the mortar could be a rocket-launcher type unit? Creates 1 "bombardment" unit per turn? These could be 4 attack, 1 movement suicide air unit
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
@redrum
redrum wrote
(map) seemed to favor the East as Britian still struggles
Yes I have seen that also. Still working to balance PU income and hopefully correct this.


@crazy_german
Human vs. Human! That is a good testing basis.  I also played today 3 human (+1 AI) vs. 4 AI, and it told me a lot. I hope that you are up for a new game with your friend one day, maybe the Renaissance or Cold War start? I think they give a whole new game experience.

crazy_german wrote
Britton's massive success seems to do little for its alliance
I  have come to think that East is a bit overpowered. I will take tiny steps to try to balance the two alliance. First by altering territory PUs (the normal map) and then buy maybe changing the start territory ownerships of the two other maps.
crazy_german wrote
Rome/Greece have a very hard time surviving if the opponent gets a naval advantage.
Yes, I have also seen that the two nations are very vulnerable and very reliant on their allies. I cant really see what to do about it ATM.
crazy_german wrote
You didn't mention decreased tech costs in the post, but its a fantastic change, particularly cheap boats.
Well, The total amount of Tech cost is the same. In the low tech end, I just lowered a few things and raised a few others. If I change the total Tech spent on all developments put together, then the player’s Tech balance number would not be 0 at the end of round 85. Right now I try to + and – proportional.
crazy_german wrote
Nature has a problem of being random and therefore negatively affecting balance. Hellinic capturing 4 mammoths instead of Germanic had a huge impact on the balance of power. An issue with a map having such a long play time is that these early battles can have such a long term impact.
Well, Nature is pretty random. It just builds a few animals before it is wiped out. I haven’t seen it as a problem yet. (The Barbarians have been more challenging.)
crazy_german wrote
The barbarians slowed the West down much more than the East I think.
I think the same. I have now changed the xml to keep the barbarians more down. They get a bit more of, sometimes all of, their income removed in every round now. Hopefully they will now be less challenging.
crazy_german wrote
I can't find much reason to buy develop-castles, because each tribe will have many camps built and it sucks to lose them. Germany purchased it because they had already lost everything and wanted a free unit. Rome built it to avoid having its own camps captured.
I am still thinking about this aspect of the map. Nothing concluded yet.
crazy_german wrote
-Why East vs West? I'm curious
-Is there a particular reason you cut off Libya/Egypt from the map
-Cannon/Mortar are far too similar. Do you think the mortar could be a rocket-launcher type unit? Creates 1 "bombardment" unit per turn? These could be 4 attack, 1 movement suicide air unit
East vs West? Hehe, no real reason.  First I thought about a FFA map with the tribes fighting each other. First there were also only 6 tribes, no Baltic and Hattic. But I like to play coop with friends and therefore it became a team vs. team. When I looked at the Europe map I made, I saw that there was so much space to the east and that there was room for two more tribes; the Baltic and the Hattic. Then I thought about the tech going all the way up to modern times, and then I thought … ah ha! An alternate history cold war.
Cut off Libya/Egypt from the map? I just took the best available satellite picture I could find on Google that was high resolution and could be made into a map. There was not much of Africa on the picture I chose. And as this is a Euro-centric map, then it is ok not to have Africa play such a big role.
Cannon/Mortar -> Rocket-launcher type unit with bombardment? Nice idea! I have also thought a bit about the exact same thing. I thought about bringing in a bombard unit that could destroy/bomb bases from an adjacent territory, just like the Rocket-Launcher unit. ATM there are actually bases with HPs but no way to destroy them before bombers and rockets come into the game. But again, I don’t know if I will change anything here.

Anyway, version 0.9.3 is out now. Thanks for the testing!
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
Frostion wrote
Yes, I have also seen that the two nations are very vulnerable and very reliant on their allies. I cant really see what to do about it ATM.
This is actually why I brought up the East vs. West alliances. I think it might make more sense to try and mix them up. Right now the front line between Italy, Greece, Baltic and Germany contains 90% of the action. Generally I think having multiple fronts to fight on would be good.

Frostion wrote
Well, The total amount of Tech cost is the same. In the low tech end, I just lowered a few things and raised a few others. If I change the total Tech spent on all developments put together, then the player’s Tech balance number would not be 0 at the end of round 85. Right now I try to + and – proportional.
This makes sense. I do think that pushing some of the tech costs to a later date might be a good move. I still advocate catapults going to 12, maybe raise boats or forts by 1?
Frostion wrote
Well, Nature is pretty random. It just builds a few animals before it is wiped out. I haven’t seen it as a problem yet. (The Barbarians have been more challenging.)
I actually think nature is more of a problem than barbarians. Barbarians at most slow a nation down. Nature gives one side unit, if you look at that save there is essentially an 8 unit swing when germany loses a battle to get some mammoths. The other thing is barbarians affect the four center-most powers very little, while nature impacts these nation very much. Rome and Hellas are quite evenly matched it seems (Hellas might have a slight edge, though I think Celtic has an edge on Hattic to balance it out) but if one side gets some extra mammoths for free and avoids losing units to nature it can be a big swing
Frostion wrote
East vs West? Hehe, no real reason.  First I thought about a FFA map with the tribes fighting each other. First there were also only 6 tribes, no Baltic and Hattic. But I like to play coop with friends and therefore it became a team vs. team. When I looked at the Europe map I made, I saw that there was so much space to the east and that there was room for two more tribes; the Baltic and the Hattic. Then I thought about the tech going all the way up to modern times, and then I thought … ah ha! An alternate history cold war.
Cut off Libya/Egypt from the map? I just took the best available satellite picture I could find on Google that was high resolution and could be made into a map. There was not much of Africa on the picture I chose. And as this is a Euro-centric map, then it is ok not to have Africa play such a big role.
Cannon/Mortar -> Rocket-launcher type unit with bombardment? Nice idea! I have also thought a bit about the exact same thing. I thought about bringing in a bombard unit that could destroy/bomb bases from an adjacent territory, just like the Rocket-Launcher unit. ATM there are actually bases with HPs but no way to destroy them before bombers and rockets come into the game. But again, I don’t know if I will change anything here.

Anyway, version 0.9.3 is out now. Thanks for the testing!
I'm happy to test. I know that changing the map would be a giant pain in the ass, but I'm thinking it could improve the game in the mediteranean were North Africa complete. Right now there is a tendency for two angry navies to just build up and give each other dirty looks. Also I think we can agree that the current cannon/ mortar arrangement is quite silly. Basically it gives incentive to ignore one tech tree and go far down the other, and the late support footman tech tree is odd. The last 5 developments includes 4 completely different units. The 0.9.3 changes look good

Edit - can you post the newest XML in the first page so I don't have to keep redownloading the entire thing?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Frostion
I really think that the cold war needs a much shorter peace. A full human vs human game at the cold war start will have far too much down time before the action begins. Even if each tribe can keep its turn to just 3 minutes, which means very little thought put into movements/purchases, it can last a long time. I'm thinking at least an hour and half of no combat expansion or dice rolling really deters people (myself included) from the cold war start.

Doing a Renaissance game now. Will post feedback

Edit-fixed the above math
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Frostion
EDIT: Version 0.9.4 is ready for testing.
Please look at the first post for details about testing and helping out.
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