Age of Tribes

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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
@All
I have released a new v0.1.7 Age of Tribes BETA.
Testers will have to do a full download as a directory name and some picture files are changed. Look at the change log bellow the download button in first post for change info.

@crazy_german
“I think Baltic begins with too many units”
They now have 2 less Musketmen to start with. See release notes below download button.

”partial amphibious retreat = false”
I think I had not thought this setting though. Planes could not retreat from an amphibious attack/battle. The setting is now true, for the sake of realism.

Regarding the guide, overall I can recognize a lot of my own thoughts in the guide. I think it covers a lot.  

“Brittonic has to build 4 ships turn 01. Try to get in Baltic's face but preserve your units”
The games I have played, a must is to build land units in Norway in the first many rounds. I don’t know if you do this?

”Barrage balloons is currently the only really bad tech”
Both balloon types are pretty weak on their own, but also good at their specialized stuff.

• I have tried to make the Observation-Balloon a bit more worth buying, here in the new 0.1.7 version. Now, by itself it is still weak and useless against other land units. But I have doubled the support strength, and it now gives 3 times +2, and not 3 time +1 to to artillery units (Their cost efficiency was pretty insignificant before). The battle calculator now gives these results (With the OOL being the default chosen by the calculator):

15 Cannons (360 PUs) attack 12 Riflemen = Win chance 62%
12 Cannons + 4 Observation-Balloon (360 PUs) attack 12 Riflemen = Win chance 85%
Good idea to pair Observation-Balloons with cannons.

10 Riflemen + 3 Cannons (322 PUs = 102% of the below price) attack 12 Riflemen = Win chance 57%
9 Riflemen + 3 Cannons + 1 Observation-Balloon (315 PUs) attack 12 Riflemen = Win chance 58%
Having an Observation-Balloon in a mixed army is a tiny bit cheaper and better.

• The Barrage-Balloon and AA has always been OK units to bring along into a fight against planes. But I have made them even stronger so that players might take them into account. These are also new battle calculator results:

14 Warplanes attack 12 Infantry (324 PUs) = Win chance 51%
14 Warplanes attack 10 Infantry + 3 Barrage-Balloons (324 PUs) = Win chance 38%
14 Warplanes attack 18 Barrage-Balloons  (324 PUs) = Win chance 24%
Barrage-Balloons  are good against planes.
 
22 Fighters attacks 20 Infantry (540 PUs) = Win chance 60%
22 Fighters attacks 17 Infantry + 4 Anti-Air (539 PUs) = Win chance 37%
22 Fighters attacks 27 Anti-Air (540PUs) = Win chance 1%
Anti-Air are even better against planes.

What do you think about these calculations and unit stats?
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
Frostion wrote
“Brittonic has to build 4 ships turn 01. Try to get in Baltic's face but preserve your units”
The games I have played, a must is to build land units in Norway in the first many rounds. I don’t know if you do this?
Nope, and in my games against myself building land as Brittonic has ended horribly for the West. If Brit builds land, I will go pure navy with Baltic and stick a large army in Gothia, which can easily be transported to defend my Swedish fort. I can control the entire Baltic Sea, and if my navy is stronger than yours I either threaten to kill your navy or threaten to take the Brit factory in Denmark. If I take the Danish straits and get my navy into the Atlantic I almost certainly win, there is just so much unprotected income to take.

We should schedule a game, because one of us must be missing something. During the change to that fort being Baltic controlled, the Balts gained 6 units and Britton lost 5, which is an enormous swing.

Frostion wrote
”Barrage balloons is currently the only really bad tech”
Both balloon types are pretty weak on their own, but also good at their specialized stuff.

What do you think about these calculations and unit stats?
Well that calc with 15 cannons attacking really bothers me because why would anyone build 15 cannons with nothing else? I seem to think that cheap casualties are more valuable than you do. Old obs balloons may have been a touch too weak, but the buff to +2 is really large, its potentially a 7/7 for 18. It seems to me that might be too strong (I'll test first though). Currently, cannons are a little bit weak after the footmen and cavalry upgrades get researched, so indirectly buffing them is a good thing I suppose. However, this also buffs mortars, which are already a really strong unit.

I have yet to see a human vs human game get anywhere near 14 warplanes built. Barrage Balloons are now a good choice once the opponent has aircraft, but the issue is just that I don't see aircraft as a huge threat in the Renaissance start. In fact I wouldn't be against lowering the cost of develop-warplane. Its supposed to be ww1 era fighters, right? That should be cheaper to obtain than the ww2 era tanks, trucks and warships (I would also say it is currently most often a worse pick than any of the above)

Also, could we develop a 4 team version for this map? Its gained some popularity with FFA players, and a lot of things about it make it a natural choice for FFA.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
Here is a savegame, just 2 rounds - Brit_should_build_navy.tsvg

I bought 2 cannons followed by 2 knights in Norway, and played out the Baltic turns. The situation in the Baltic looks really dire for the West (their dice were above average too). Were there plays I made that you would have done differently that could improve the situation of the West?

The way I see it, if Baltic gets a large navy into sea zone 33 safely, things just go bad for Brittonic fast. Brittonic  had no way to hold Denmark and save its navy without Germanic support. I also don't like that extra Slavic muskteteer in Lagodaski at all.

This game also caught another thing that may be better off changed, which is Sicily on turn 01. To me, it seems that attacking with Hellenic is by far the best play. However, this battle is really swingy. 2 Hellenic surivive, and suddenly the East is in a great position. Rome can try to counter, but if that also goes wrong the West has dug a deep hole in the mediteranean. On the other hand, if the battle goes bad for Hellenic, it sets back the east a ton. The Mediteranean is really tightly balanced right now, and this battle has big long term implications. Do you think moving a Roman Halberder or Muskteteer to Sicily would be a good change?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
@all
v0.1.8 is now relased
• Changes to notes (More info on bases).
• Every base type development, besides the Fort, now gives only 2 free base placements.
• 1 Romanic Halberdman added to Sicily on the Renaissance map starting conditions.

@Crazy_german
“However, this also buffs mortars, which are already a really strong unit.”

Observation-Balloons do not support the mortars with +2. When Mortars changed function to be as they are now, throwing ammo at enemies, they also lost the ability to be supported by Observation-Balloons. This was done because they went out of the “artillery” category (red) and into the support line. Observation-Balloons support as it is stated in the information decoration picture: Catapult, Ballista, Trebuchet, Cannon, Tank, Battle-Tank and Battle-Mech. My experience is that the Balloons die out before Battle-Tanks and Battle-Mechs, but in theory they could support them … steam punk style

I played a long game of Renaissance against myself today, and I think the new Observation-Balloons are nice. I think I made good use of them and that they now have a place in the game. The engine also does not choose them as the first casualty anymore, is it can see it is making a difference. I don’t think they have become too strong. If you think so, please set up a situation that would indicate this. It would probably be best to see them in conjunction with “Riflemen” type footmen and cannon, as I think the realistic time of usage/introduction of Observation-Balloons would be in conjunction with Musketmen (Cannon and balloons would be high tech and effective)/Riflemen/Infantry (Cannon and balloons would be kind of low tech and less effective).

“games against myself building land (in Norway) as Brittonic has ended horribly for the West.”

My experience with the Baltic Sea, when Brittonic places land in Norway, and goes 50/50 land/sea, is that it results in east/west sea unit pile up at Germanic trade center and at Baltic trade center. Maybe this is because I personally, when reacting with Baltic and Slavic, cannot let them/myself dedicate all resources to sea and hope to top the Brittonic. My Baltic places the two possible units in Sweden and placed ships for the rest. The Slavic may place some ships, but the amount would then just provoke the west/Brit to react accordingly. The land fight for Scandinavia is in my games really balanced, with both east and west having a chance to win, and also they try to make use of amphibious smart moves when they can. I hope you and the lobby gamers will try out/ figure out what options and consequences there are atm., via a bunch of games and experience, and then we can look at the setup with new eyes.

“The Mediteranean is really tightly balanced right now, and this battle has big long term implications. Do you think moving a Roman Halberder or Muskteteer to Sicily would be a good change?”


I think you are correct. The starting conditions did favor the east in regards to capturing Sicily in first or second turn. I added a Halberdman to help defend it, even though it will most certainly fall in turn two if Hellenic, Hattic and even Slavic does what they can to get that island. But then they would start to not prioritize other stuff. I think a balance where the island could potentially change hands a lot during the first couple of turns is the way to go, thus no one will be able/willing to build a base there for some time. At the moment I feel that the southern war theater seems kind of well balanced. Both the battle of the Romanic northern fort, the control of Sicily and the fight for Africa seems really to be depending on player to player coordination, and where the alliances lay their focus.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
New obs balloons are very strong but I agree they are balanced. Its too difficult to abuse them since they rely on support to deal damage.

Yes, the southern theater is really well balanced. Both sides have strong plays available, but pushing hard in one area means weakness in another. How much support Slavic/Celtic send also creates interesting possibilities. This is exactly how a map should be designed.

On the Baltic, we still disagree. I think that by building only half navy, you are just playing sub-optimally. Do you ever play in the lobby? The best solution I think would be to play each other, there are obvious issues with playing against yourself, and currently I'm very experienced compared to others.

If you can't join me for a lobby or PBEM game, let me suggest this. Just play as Baltic, and force yourself to build pure navy. I think you will see that the ground situation in Sweden actually improves from having access to the extra transport capacity, and you force the opponent to match your navy size. If Baltic can unite its entire starting army around a navy that can transport the entire thing, I don't see how the West wins (I reference this in my strategy guide as an unbeatable play). In the human vs human games that are posted, you will notice I leave ships in bad locations sometimes, choosing to give my opponent a favorable battle rather than let him unify the Baltic army.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

prastle
Administrator
  We have found that ships are too powerfull.  A few thoughts are.  1 increase the cost of ships.  2 create a second ship that is a fishing boat/ then merchant then merchant armored then amphibious assault boat? with cheap cost and no defense in the beginning.  This unit would carry 2 then 3 then 4 units.  Eventually being able to defend itself but still cheaper than a warship.  Meanwhile war/sail ships can always only carry 2 units. just a thought and two cents worth :)

Pras
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
I am going to second Prastle's thought. Currently, it is too cheap to get enough transport capacity. If you win a naval build up, at the end you will usually have basically unlimited transport capacity. You also end up building transport capacity by accident. Currently, pure navy is the best play for many nations and that is ok, many maps have very exciting naval battles. However, with only 1 ship type at a time, in Age of Tribes building pure navy several turns in a row is very boring.

Here is my suggestion, with 2 naval tech trees. My question to you is, are you open to changing the tech tree, and would you be able to create new unit art? I think at least 2 new units are needed

The first naval tech is the boat, it remains unchanged. After developing boats, Develop-Galley and Develop-SailShip both become available. The new tech flow is

Boat-->Galley-->Man o'War-->Ironclad-->Warship(rename to battleship?)-->Sub-->Carrier?
Boats remain available if Galleys are developed.

Boat-->Sail-Ship-->Steam-Ship-->Carrier?
You lose access to boats if Sail-Ships are developed. Steam-ships and new sail-ships have lower combat stats, possibly 0 attack.

Boats have 1 trans capacity. Sail ships have 2, steam ships have 3. No other ships have transport capacity, they are used for combat, and can have access to strong bombard. Thoughts?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
Another issue came up, with the frequent version changes. If a change is as minor as just new unit placements, we can just edit it before the game. An updated version every few days makes it difficult to get players and leads to confusing errors.

I also have disagreed with some of the recent unit set up changes. Would it be better to create a hypothetical version that is updated only once every week or two, so less updates are needed and players can discuss the balance of changes before they are implemented?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
”ships are too powerfull”
I guess this can be understood in many ways: Price, bombardment, att/def stats, for example against airplanes, and finally transport capacity.

Bombardment is at the moment lowered to what I would describe as a minimum, so I can’t see this being changed. I hope you play with the latest version?

The ship defense stats, like against aircraft, seems OK to me.
 
I have thought about decreasing transport capacity a bit for the late tech ships Ironclad and warship. 4 and 6 seems to be a bit too much. That is why the new v0.1.9 will test out a decrease of Ironclad transport capacity from 4 to 3, and Warship from 6 to 3.

“are you open to changing the tech tree”
I can’t see a totally new line of ships being implemented. This is just too much work. Though I like the names of the would be new ships.

In the new v0.1.9 I have only increased the price of ships a tiny bit, as it is also affecting other aspects of the map. When it comes to the whole air, sea, land ratio and roles and rules of this map, I don’t think one should compare it to most other maps, especially the classic ones.

The idea on this map is to get ships and air a bit more into play. Hence the maybe low ship prices and the relative long air-range. In my mind, I imagine a futuristic war scenario containing a lot of effective and crucial air units, robotics and drones, just like real life is beginning to show. Right now I think Age of Tribes can be characterized as starting out with 100% infantry usage, gradually introducing support units, around Renaissance approximately 75% infantry dependant, at endgame maybe only 50% infantry on the map. Also, the constantly changing unit selection should constantly change the optimal unit pick. This is kind of the idea anyway, as well as the map also supporting and allowing different kinds of play stiles having reasonably success chances.

Let’s see what this little change to ship price and capacity does to the game.

"frequent version changes"
I try have the tiny “xml only” download option every time possible, so the download/installation should not take that long. But I can see that the many updates can lead to players having different versions installed. Maybe we could limit to one version per week or something.

”recent unit set up changes”
The unit start setup, particular around the Baltic, is still in my mind and a focus point. I will also have two friends of mine look at it when we (hopefully) play a few LAN-games soon.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

prastle
Administrator
Cool we will give 1.9 a try!  Love the map and I think its a great idea.  Play through the ages.  Boats about the only downfall atm.  Yes we are using the newer versions. 1.7 last night but edited the inf change. and 1.8 today.  

Ty for the hard work.

Pras

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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
In reply to this post by Frostion
Big amount of feedback incoming-

Could you rename either forts or fortresses? Its really silly to these be different unit types. Citadel or Stronghold seem like appropriate replacements.
Would battleships be a better name than warships? When I think warship, that is any type of ship used for war, while a battleship is a specific class of large, powerful, and somewhat modern ship. The term Dreadnought would also make sense for a ship of that time period.

Cold war's initial peace significantly reduces its appeal to many players, myself included. I takes a long time to get through the peace, especially if a large group is playing (2v2 games have become pretty common). I also don't think the cold war units are very balanced at this point; this awkward peace and difficulty getting an opponent makes balancing them much harder.

One suggestion I do have for the cold war units is the nukes. What if each nuke costs both PUs and tech to build? Nukes are going to be a great TUV trade if they are remotely historical, making them cost tech creates a possibility to have them be great value by PUs but still balanced

On the renaissance balance, 26 PUs for sail-ships is generally a good change, however it hurts the west a lot early game. Brittonic can't keep Baltic out of SZ 33 turn 01, and Celtic loses significant momentum. When I recommend building 4 ships as britts and 4 as celts turn 01, it is to stop the East from having access to a few really powerful strategies (like stacking sicily, or occupying SZ33+Gothia).

Over the past 2 days, many players have been offering suggestions on how to help balance the Renaissance start, focusing mostly on factory locations. Currently, the following suggestions have been met with great approval (and multiple games have been played with these changes)
-Brittonic fort in Dania moved to Anglia
           increases their options significantly, less dependence on navy, if Britts lose at Sea its less bad than before

-Added 1 germanic knight and repositioned germanic units
          Let Germanic potentially counter-attack Baltic units turn 01. Germanic is just really weak in the Renaissance start, and it can't apply any pressure at all until turn 3 or 4. I'm finding that germanic/brittonic need to play almost perfect in order to have a chance of ever defeating the baltic army (not to mention the even stronger slavs)

There have been many other suggestions made, big and small, which we are still playtesting. I will post a suggestion XML hopefully soon. A question is how big of changes are you will willing to make? Playtesting has shown that big changes, like Brittonic owned Gibraltar or Roman owned Thrace, drastically increase the options available to both sides.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
A new version is ready. 0.1.9 to 0.2.0 Changes:
• Changes to the XML that prevents an error from occurring and shutting down the game, when/if a ship sits on a hostile and uncaptured sea-territory after the cold war has ended, and an air attack is then launched at that same ship.
• Removed the outdating of ship type units, as transported land units can get stuck at sea if their transport ships are removed from the game. Cimbria PU production raised from 2 to 3 (Britonic on the Renaisance map).
• Frisia PU production raised from 2 to 3 (Germanic on the Renaisance map).
• Belgica PU production raised from 1 to 2 (Germanic on the Renaisance map).
• Added 5 Germanic Knights in Teutonia (above Germanic capital) to the renaissance map start setup.
• Added 1 Brittonic Fort in Anglia (Southern part of Jutland) to the renaissance map start setup.
• Cold War duration on all maps is now 3 rounds, not 4.

Very nice with a bunch of feedback, and that players actually try out the maps. I guess the Primeval map is just being played single player? Or what? I personally think that start is well suited for single player fun  Not that there is much to “balance” on that map I guess.

Cold War
I can understand why the Cold War element seems kind of boring if players expect to fight every single round in an A&A map. But I think this is an interesting and alternative way to start a map, and that it gives the players a new contesting situation that is not fighting, but preparing to fight: A few rounds of sea movements that would not normally be possible, air and ground unit redeployments and shopping according to what the other players do and shop. I can really don’t see the cold war duration time being lowered more than it is now. And it will not be removed from the game. I think that the rounds during cold war is also done quicker than normal rounds, as there is no fighting, so it is not dragging out that long in my mind.
 
Fort and Fortress
I wanted the bases/factories to be HQs of the tribal militaries. The graphics are of what I would call a wooden fort and a star fort/fortress, or just fort and fortress. I know that the names and meaning are pretty alike. I also would like to have two names that are not that similar, but it is pretty hard to find an alternative combination of names that are not actually really describing something else than the two unit graphics are showing.
Citadel is a good alternative name, but it is actually the inner/core area of a fortress or a bigger fortified area. Stronghold, I guess, is the more English and in my ears a more medieval sounding name for a fortress. But as the graphics are of an Italian renaissance style inspired star fort, I have not change the names yet. But Citadel is still a good candidate.

Warship
I did not intent the ship unit names to reflect ship calcifications or roles like frigate, corvette, destroyer, battleship and so on. The names more reflect the age or type of ship more than classes. I am satisfied with Warship. It is the only general description of a modern type warship I can think of. One could also say that the names warplane (world war 1 type) vs. fighter (world war 2 type) are a bit strange, but it’s the best I can think of.

Base in Anglia
In the new version there is now a Fort in Anglia. I do not want to remove the Castle in Dania as it symbolizes the Danish capital Copenhagen, just like Oslo and Stockholm are also on the map as bases. Denmark had the largest fleet and headquarters of all northern Europe in the Renaissance, and I would like that to be represented in the map. But it does make sense to also have a fort in Anglia, as Denmark has always had defensive fortifications in that area (Like Danevirke and Dybbøl). Let’s see how that little addition changes the game.

Germanic kind of defenseless and week at start.
I have played a couple of long games with myself now. Like 5 to 10 turns each time. No matter the strategy, I have not been able to break out of the Baltic Sea with Baltic/Slavic before the game is already decided. The east normally ends up owning half or all of Sweden and Norway in my games. Also, it looks like the east clearly has the initiative and kills off most of the Germanic units in round 1. It is also seems to be the situation that a couple of rounds after that, the Slavic arrive with like 10-12 cavalry units and hits hard once more on the west. Sure the Celtic also comes with some units at some point, but that is a onetime help as they are probably focusing all PUs in Africa, unlike Slavic, they can build and reinforce continuously to battle the Germanic and Brittonic. And in the south, I also feel that the East has a tiny upper hand. That’s why I actually think that the Germanic need more than 1 knight to add some balance, and Knights are weak if just used in defense. I have tried to add about 3-5 (Teutonic) Knights to the Germanic. I know it might seem like a lot, but taking the long term map conditions into account, Germanic really could use some a smaller counter attack force in the first rounds. Let’s test this new balance out and see if they should maybe be lowered to 3.

How big of changes are you will willing to make?
There are limits. I think we could say that a few unit changes are still possible. “Brittonic owned Gibraltar or Roman owned Thrace” are not something I would do on my Renaissance are map.

PS: Any save games of player vs. player fights are still welcome!
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
I'm going to collect some savegames and post what I can. I also going to offer an open challenge, I am convinced East is unbeatable in the 1.9 Renaissance start, anyone is welcome to join me in the lobby and try to prove me wrong. If you are unable to break out of the Baltic, I see only 2 explanations.
-there is some massively powerful move for the West that I just can't find
-your play group is playing Baltic really sub-optimally
 The only time I ever don't break out of Baltic is if West surrenders first (I have never lost a game as East with the recent versions)

I would say Primeval is pretty well balanced actually (I have no clue if East or West has the advantage, maybe slightly pro-West among newer players, but for experts it should be even). The map is really high variance though, I wouldn't ever consider it for a competitive game without Low Luck.

On name changes, the ww1 era of naval combat is sometimes referred to as the "Dreadnought era", it would be an appropriate name for what you want. Citadel seems like a decent term for the square forts (I honestly don't care too much as long as they're different)

I think you need to consider what you want this game to be. I can tell you that moving the Dania castle to Anglia is a massive improvement of gameplay, and that putting a base in both is not a comparable decision. Personally, I really value gameplay over history, especially since this map is counter-factual history. I have done the battle calcs, its impossible for Germany to stop Slavic from taking 1 of Marcomania or Germania, and impossible to stop both without giving up Norway or devoting an enormous number of celts. Those German Knights will of course change this, but why 5 knights? Thats a huge power swing, just 1 knight + moving units from Gotini allows a counter-attack.

I don't think that 3 turns of Cold War accomplishes anything that a bid+single turn of peace couldn't. A big issue I see is just that so many units have a clearly obvious best move, I don't see many choices to make. I'm also convinced the units and tech aren't balanced. I can see 3 turns of peace being interesting if it happens in the middle of a game, but at game start not so much (it seems like we will repeat 3 very similar turns each time its played)
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
Zipped folder with 3 saved games- RenaissanceGames.zip

The 0.1.9 save will be continued tonight. I'm playing as Britts and Germanic. I have walked the line between Ground and Sea investemnts as best I could, and even after getting many favorable trades I still can't touch the Baltic army (especially if Slavic supports it at all). Germanic can't touch Balts or Slavs, despite the enormous investments and singificant blunders of the Slavic army in the south.

Edit -realized that this savegame is an edited XML to start, we testing alternate base building locations. I think it still shows good feeback for the Renaissance in general though, especially the incredible advantage East holds in the north.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
Yes I can see that the 0.1.9 it is edited. Its hard to compare those moves and conditions with the standard map.

Compared to your 0.1.9 version/save the 0.2.0 version adds:
• 2 more PUs to the Germanic round income
• 5 Knights to use in a 1st round offensive strike back or to move into a defensive position.
• Your edited start also has some units moved further back in the Germanic territories, that I would say could be in a better and more threatening position closer to the front, especially now where 5 knights could attack any territory lost in round 1.

When I play, controlling all sides, both Gothia and Venedi are lost in round 1. But I would then draw all available Germanic units primary to Vandalia and secondary to Buri underneath Vandalia.
In round 2 the two armies join forces in Vandalia and Fortress tech is developed so a Fortress can be places there in round 3.
In round 3, 10 Celtic units arrive in Buri, South of Vandalia.

With the above strategy, a pretty big westen force will be holding back the East, but when the Slavic 1-move units start to show up, then the pressure on Germanic gets worse. I can try to make a round 36+37+38 save game for you with all the moves and purchases that I would make. Stay tuned.

I don’t understand the barren and defenceless Sicily in the edited map, also I don’t like the castle in Cartago/Tunis. This practically makes the Hattic run the game from that territory from start. In the standard setup, the Hattic must fight for getting and holding control over both these territories.

On the standard map…
I feel that the Brittonic have a double role; keeping a fleet supremacy and fighting for Norway and Sweden with land units.
Germanic are building defense, waiting for the 10 unit help from Celtic, and also hoping to see Brittonic help as Germanic and Celtic would need help to go on the offensive.
In the south I feel that the Celtic have a pretty easy time getting Africa. It is just a matter of round and how many units Hattic places in Tunis.
Romanic is defensive; trying to keep Italy safe from sea invasion and trying to keep the Castle, and they are also waiting for Celtic help to arrive.

On the other side, if Hattic do not hold Africa or get hold of Sicily, then they are in a really bad position to help. If Hellenic do not get the Romanic castle captured/destroyed, they are also in a pretty bad position. If the Germanic DO break though the line somehow, and Slavic has invested all PUs in fleet/Scandinavia, then East are in a bad situation up north.

Right now I think the balance (and I would call this the effort to even out the first rounds even more and let chance and skill be the defining factor that determines who gets the upper hand) would benefit from giving Cimbria (North Jutland) and Anglia (South Jutland) one more Brittonic musketeer each. Then Britonic could use them to either reinforce Scandinavia or Germania.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
Yes we were trying some new things (mostly alternate factory positions) since the game was clearly pro-east. In your version, those 5 german knights certainly help the balance, here is a save of me versus myself, an EAstern victory but a far more interesting fight than before-0.tsvg
I do agree that additional British ground would be good for the game.

With that said, there is more to a good game than a 50-50 win ratio between alliances. We were also trying to change how certain nations played, because we felt they had very few options, especially Hattic. This is why we recommend the Castle in Anglia instead of Dania, and making Gibraltar a British fort. It creates more options for the British without making the West's raw power any better. These are both well thought out and play tested suggestions, they have a good impact on gameplay.

I really don't recommend both Dania + Anglia having forts, it just makes holding that Sea Zone even more important (and it was already almost an instant loss if it falls). I am aware that Denmark had a well fortified german border, but its alternate history, in this history brits+germs are friends, and a Fort's 2 production has a drastically larger impact on gameplay than its +2 defense.

The map is already rather cluttered with factories, especially around the Baltic. I would also recommend removing Baltic bases from both Semigallia and Livonia, and possibly reducing the forts in Africa as well. I haven't liked a few of the recent changes, like the extra musketeer in St. Petersburg. Before, I wasn't sure if building a ship with Slavic turn 01 was the right play, now I'm very convinced that it is much better than building land units. The game will play best when different choices are relatively equal in strength. With the Germanic knights, my question is would another group of units be a better addition than those 5 knights?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

Frostion
OK, here is a new version of the Renaissance map that should give some new possibilities for the players and weaken the east a bit.

V0.2.1 changes:
• Removed some Eastern starting units.
• Added a few units to Brittonic capital
• Made Gibraltar territory Brittonic.
• Removed / placed / rearranged a few starting bases and units to add some more player options.

I think the 5 Knights are a good threat towards Baltic. Baltic will think twice when do ing the first move, as Germanic can hit pretty hard back in round one. I think Baltic can only afford one or no attack in round one now. Afterwards Germanic can figure out if he wants to use the Knight offensive in the first round or place them in defense.

In the new 0.2.1 version, I have tried to rearrange units a bit. Like the changelog says, I removed some Eastern/Slavic starting units (footmen) to bring down the impact of when the Slavic gets to Germanic, including removing the St. Petersburg Musketeer. Also, I added a few units to the Britonnic capital (investment in 1 ship can slowly bring them to eastward) and made Gibralta Brittonic, while still making it possible for the Celtic to attack the African Hattic territories every single turn of the three first rounds. Personally I can’t see how Brittonic can afford investing in also fighting in the south, but maybe other players would try to sacrifice some northern power to secure Africa/Sicily/South quickly. I placed a Celtic fort by the border to Germania so that they can invest in land units and go east. Moved the Romanic far-west fort one territory eastward. Here it is a little easier to place units to rush toward the Romanic castle. Hattic has a fort far up nort, if they want to invest in land units/ships there they can now do that.

I have not made a save of my personal favorite first moves, as I still haven’t investigated all the new possibilities the new changes give.

I would really like some single unit removals / additions / changes / suggestions that could improve this new startup setting.
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
This post was updated on .
Good update, now both sides are in high pressure situations. Did a quick game against myself, East has upperhand but still undecided - 2_1Feedback.tsvg

One thing that I really like I don't know what the best plays are, before it seemed obvious but now I often have competing options.

The role of Brits in Gib is just potentially to provide 1 or 2 units to tip Sicily early game (like Slavic sometimes does). Its a big boost to West in the south if Brits build a ship, but it also hurts them in North, great balance. I am a huge fan or the rearranged hattic units as well, Africa can be a real pain now. Slavic no longer beats Germanic if it supports other fronts too much, I think this is much better. Playing a human vs human game now, will post the save tonight hopefully.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
The above same game completed with an Eastern victory -2_1Feedback.tsvg

West made some mistakes, I think a comeback would have been possible if I had not waited to crush the Slavic castle in Marcomania. The early Med also could have been better for the West, especially if Britton built a ship in Gibraltar. Its so tempting to build that, but building 3 in the north is also great tempo, and building 2 ships + 2 land is also tempting. I think I played well overall, but its no longer clear to me what the best play is, so many options and many different paths to go down.

This was a very enjoyable game, very fresh compared to before, each individual nation feels quite strong and is once again fun to play.
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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Re: Age of Tribes – Open Beta

crazy_german
I created a thread with some questions about how suicide/munitions are supposed to function, which included a save game with bugs of Age of tribes (since my previous post asking questions about it didn't get any attention from the Devs).

Also edited my Renaissance strategy guide page to note that it is outdated. I will write an updated version, just want to play some more games first. The new version is a really good map I think, probably nearing what its final positioning should look like. I'm also beginning to gather some thoughts on tech pricing, particularly during the transition from Renaissance era technology to modern/cold war, which is a little bit rocky at the moment. I mentioned maybe lowering the cost of develop-warplanes (and possibly the warplanes themselves), have you given this any thought?
Correctly crazy, disingenuously German
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