Age of Tribes

[Frostion]

Map Features:
This is pure counterfactual history. In this timeline, the ancient tribes of Europe banded together in two large opposing alliances a long time ago. Since that time their sole purpose was to destroy the other civilization and prove their own cultural and military supremacy. But who would be the triumphing part? The Eastern Tribes or the Western Tribes?

This map includes a tech system with a tech tree. Players can purchase technological developments, place them at bases, thereby gaining access to new and better units, while at the same time automatically outdating old ones.

The map has a VERY LONG PLAYTIME, approximately 25-100 rounds. The tech tree can be fully developed by round 85. Because of these conditions, players can choose to jump into the tribal war at other time periods than the primeval age. This can be done by playing the different available versions of Age of Tribes. (There are three XMLs)

Other special features of this map include primeval wildlife, barbarian tribes, advancing ages/time periods, the Black Death, nuclear attack capabilities, special long range bombardment, over 50 unit types and more.

Please help with or comment on:
• Anything related to the game experience.
• The map’s five starts / unit layouts / balance of the starts.
• Unit prices.
• Grammar and spelling.
• Any questions that new players (you) might still have after looking at the info picture and game notes. It would be great to get testing feedback here, so that I can add relevant stuff to the game notes.

Version 1.0.4 (53.8 MB) for TripleA v1.9.0.0
(Place the zip file in the directory called "downloadedMaps")


Changelog:
v1.0.3 to v1.0.4
• Germanic now starts with one more Infantry in Dalmatia (by Adriatic sea) and in Navari (Eastern front) during modern start.
• Warplane (WW1) movement increased from 4 to 5. (Now they can move 3 with an aircraftcarrier and stil participate in an amphibius assault against land with its 2 last moves)
• Missile-Shield PU cost lowered from 50 to 40.
• Energy-Shield PU cost lowered from 25 to 20.
• Some development costs altered:
     -Develop Fleet-Carrier from 275 to 310
     -Develop Bomber from 305 to 310
     -Develop Air-Transport from 305 to 310
     -Develop Attack-Helicopter from 465 to 420

v1.0.2 to v1.0.3
• Air battles / interceptions now last 2 rounds.
• Added mayOverStackAA to the Barrage-Balloon and Anti-Air unit (More than one unit should now AA fire at a single attacking/defending aircraft).
• Bomber unit bombingMaxDieSides reduced from 9 to 4. (A single unit cannot take out a Command-Bunker, but it can inflict up to 40 PUs worth of damage)
• Stealth-Bomber unit bombingMaxDieSides reduced from 10 to 5. (A single unit can theoretically take out a Command-Bunker if lucky)
• Bomber price reduced from 43 to 36 PUs.
• Stealth-Bomber price reduced from 45 to 38 PUs.
• Air-Transport price increased 37 to 40 PUs.
• Missile-Shield price raised from 20 to 50 PUs.
• Energy-Shield price lowered from 40 to 25 PUs.
• Fleet-Carrier carrier capacity lowered from 10 to 6 space.
• Some development costs altered:
     -Develop Shock Trooper from 570 to 500
     -Develop Battle Mech from 700 to 600
     -Develop War Robot from 620 to 550
     -Develop Fleet Carrier from 335 to 275
     +Develop Missile Silo from 850 to 1000
     +Develop Missile Shield from 400 to 510
     -Develop Energy Shield from 580 to 520
     +Develop Attack Helicopter from 365 to 465
     +Develop Air-Transport from 295 to 305
     -Develop Bomber from 315 to 305

v1.0.1 to v1.0.2
• Changed the Attack-Helicopter unit stats.
• Fixed some file name issues that prevented the Citadel image from loading.

v0.2.5 to v1.0.1
• Converted the map to TripleA v1.9.0.0

v0.2.4 to v0.2.5
• Fortress base/factory unit renamed to Citadel.
• Nuke plane unit cost raised from 20 PUs to 30 PUs.
• Submarine unit is now 7 Att / 7 Def and not 8 Att / 8 Def.
• Submarine is now both stealth and anti-stealth, meaning that they can be used to counter enemy subs hiding in sea zones.

v0.2.3 to v0.2.4
• Truck price reduced from 21 to 20.
• The Anti-Air unit now targets units flying over it.
• The Primeval map now has a Barbarian Caveman living on Sicily.
• A Classical Age map is now available.
• A Modern Age map is now available.
• A lot of minor XML changes.

v0.2.2 to v0.2.3
• All ships cost changed - most cost 2 PUs more.
• All ships have gained +1 strenght in att/def.
• Warplane, Fighter, Jet-Fighter and Attack-Helicopter cost +1 PU more.

v0.2.1 to v0.2.2
• Reduced Primeval Map’s Barbarian PU collection a tiny bit.
• 1 Romanic Halberdman starting unit added to Samnium (heel of Italy) on the Renaissance map.
• Many unit PU cost changes.
• Many development Tech cost changes, but no ground breaking alterations.
• Cannon is now 6 Att / 6 Def, not 5 Att / 5 def.
• Truck is now 5 Att / 5 Def, not 6 Att / 6 def.
• Battle-Tank is now 9 Att / 6 Def, not 9 Att / 5 def.
• Battle-Meck is now 10 Att / 8 Def, not 10 Att / 6 def.

v0.2.0 to v0.2.1
• Removed some Eastern starting units.
• Added a few units to Brittonic capital.
• Made Gibraltar territory Brittonic.
• Removed / placed / rearranged some starting bases to add some more player options.

v0.1.9 to v0.2.0
• Changes to the XML that prevents an error from occurring and shutting down the game, when/if a ship sits on a hostile and uncaptured sea-territory after the cold war has ended, and an air attack is then launched at that same ship.
• Removed the outdating of ship type units, as transported land units can get stuck at sea if their transport ships are removed from the game.
• Cimbria PU production raised from 2 to 3 (Britonic on the Renaisance map).
• Frisia PU production raised from 2 to 3 (Germanic on the Renaisance map).
• Belgica PU production raised from 1 to 2 (Germanic on the Renaisance map).
• Added 5 Germanic Knights in Teutonia (above Germanic capital) to the renaissance map start setup.
• Added 1 Brittonic Fort in Anglia (Southern part of Jutland) to the renaissance map start setup.
• Cold War duration on all maps is now 3 rounds, not 4.

v0.1.8 to v0.1.9
• Transport capacity of Ironclad reduced from 4 to 3.
• Transport capacity of Warship reduced from 6 to 3.
• Cost of Boat, Galley, Sail-Ship and Ironclad increased a bit.
• Cost, attack and defense of Submarine is now displayed correctly in tooltips.

v0.1.7 to v0.1.8
• Changes to notes (More info on bases).
• Every base type development, besides the Fort, now gives only 2 free base placements.
• 1 Romanic Halberdman added to Sicily on the Renaissance map starting conditions.

v0.1.6 to v0.1.7
• Some picture changes.
• Main directory name changed from “Age of Tribes” to “age of tribes”.
• Repairing a base now costs 10 PU per HP, not 5.
• Observation-Balloon now gives three artillery units +2 att./def., not +1.
• Observation-Balloon cost raised from 17 to 18 PUs.
• AA power of the Barrage-Balloon and Anti-Air units is doubled.
• Land att./def. power of the Barrage-Balloon and Anti-Air units raised from 1A/1D and 2A/2D to 2A/2D and 3A/3D.
• Removed 2 Musketmen from the Baltic Renaissance map start.
• Added 1 Musketman to the Hellenic Renaissance map start. (Greece/Hellas)
• Added 1 Musketman to the Slavic Renaissance map start. (St. Petersburg/Ladogaski)
• ”partial amphibious retreat” is now set to true.

v0.1.5 to v0.1.6
• Small changes to the notes.
• Original Age of Tribes map is now called “Primeval”.
• Cold War starting unit setup changed.
• Traditional Slavic territories lowered in 4 PUs to make the Slavic weaker.
• Traditional Brittonic territories raised 5 PUs to make them stronger.

v0.1.41 to v0.1.5
• Small changes to the Renaissance map unit and territory start setup.
• The default “AI Bonus Income Flat Rate” is now correctly (as written in notes) set to 15 on the original map, 20 on the renaissance map and 25 on the cold war map.
• Bombardment strength of ships greatly reduced. The d10 bombardment values are now: Sail-Ship bombard from 5 to now 1, Ironclad from 6 to now 2 and Warship from 8 to now 3.
• Added bombard info to the tooltips of the three ships’ “develop unit”.

v0.1.4 to v0.1.41
• Just added some lines to the three XML and the tooltips.properties file.

v0.1.3 to v0.1.4
• The three XMLs have been altered so that all the “develop unit” units do not show during battle calculations.
• Added Capitals to the AI, AI-Nature, AI-Plague and AI-Barbarians. They can now be set to does nothing without the map crashing.
• Changed text in the notifications.properties.

v0.1.2 to v0.1.3
• Cold War map now has a system that enables the two big powers, the Brittonic and the Slavic, to transfer PUs to the smaller allied powers.
• Removed all “original ownerships” from the Cold War map xml.
• Fixed a few flawed “original ownerships” in the Renaissance map xml.

v0.1.1 to v0.1.2
• Rockets and Mortar-Bombardments now have defense power in addition to the attack power, meaning that they will fire at the enemy once when if their Rocket-Launcher unit or Mortar unit is attacked. The ammo units will now allways die when enemies attack, and also immediately after their first strike on the enemy.

v0.1.0 to v0.1.1
• Minor changes to the plague. It now spreads a little better. (It is more likely to try to capture land territories.)

v0.9.9 to v0.1.0
• Mortar-Bombardment, Rockets, Nukes and Ballistic-Missiles are no longer defensive suicide weapons. Mortar-Bombardment and Rockets are no longer destroyed when bombarded. Nukes and Ballistic-Missiles no longer blow up (Nuke explosion) when attacked.

v0.9.8 to v0.9.9
• Graphics - All territory PU value pictures have now been adjusted.
• The notes description of Barrage-Balloons and Anti-Air units are now more precise.
• Other minor changes in the xml.

v0.9.7 to v0.9.8
• 8 Slavic Horsemen added to the Renaissance start map. (The map start seemed to favor the West a bit.)
• Notes now correctly state that all buildings can be repaired in the owning player´s purchase phase, not in the start of the owning player´s round.
• Tooltips now correctly state that a single Barrage-Balloon and a single Anti-Air unit can only shoot at a single target every battle round.
• Major changes to the Mortar unit. It is now a strategic bombardment unit.
• Lowered the effectiveness of the Rocket-Launcher's Rocket a bit.
• Raised the cost of repairing building HP from 1 PU to 5 PUs.
• Damaged buildings now have their production capabilities reduced. (1 HP damage = -1 placement)
• Lowered the cost of every air unit a bit.
• Raised the cost of Barrage-Balloon and Anti-Air a bit.
• Nuclear explosions now kill 0-5 units, not 0-10 units.
• Nuke plane cost reduced from 50 to 25 PUs.
• Raised the Tech cost of nuclear Missile-Silo from 650 to 850. (Lowered the Missile-Shield and Energy-Shield building Tech cost by 200.)
• Minor changes in Tech cost for develop Warship and Infantry.
• Other minor changes in the XML.

v0.9.6 to v0.9.7
• War-Robot cost reduced from 21 to 19 PUs
• Attack-Helicopter reduced from 41 to 36 PUs
• Bomber cost raised from 50 to 51 PUs
• Stealth-Bomber cost raised from 53 to 54 PUs
• Mortar stats changed from 6Att./4def. to 7Att./3def. Cost raised from 25 to 26 PUs.
• A few more starting units added to the west in on the Cold War start map.
• 20 PU AI Bonus Income Flat Rate is now the default setting on the Renaissance map.
• 25 PU AI Bonus Income Flat Rate is now the default setting on the Cold War map.
• A few minor changes in the XML.

v0.9.5 to v0.9.6
• Free base number when developing bases are now reduces by 1 overall. Fort now gives one free fort. Castle gives 2 free catles, fortress gives 3 free fortresses and Command-Bunker give 4 free Command-Bunkers.
• The removal of outdated units now occur at the beginning of each Tribal turn. All units are no longer removed at the beginning of the Age start round.

v0.9.4 to v0.9.5
• All 8 tribes now have 1 more submarines from start in the Cold War start version.
• Sail-Ships now have 2 and not 3 transport capacity.
• An optional 350 PU economic victory condition added.
• Players can now only attack with 1 Nuke or 1 Ballistic-Missile at a time.
• Added maxRunCount 10 to all Nature steps, 34 to all Plague steps and 55 to all Barbarian steps.
(This removes nature when it is extinct, plague when it is over and Barbarians become immobile from start of the modern age and forward.)
• Removed all Combat Movement during the cold war.
• Base development is now more attractive. Fort gives 2 free Forts, Castle gives 3 free Castles, Fortress gives 4 free Fortresses and Command-Bunkers give 5 free Command-Bunkers.

v0.9.3 to v0.9.4
• New start territory PU values give +4 PUs to west and -4 PUs to east. (East still seemed a bit stronger)
• Added No Access sign decorations to all impassable mountain terrain.
• Corsica is now Celtic owned from start on the Cold War map.
• Added text “Radiation zones prevent attackers from blitzing” to game notes and tooltips.
• Added a few new special unit explanations to game notes.
• Submarine 9Att/5Def changed to 7Att/7Def
• Submarines may now move into enemy waters in non-combat.
• Submarines may now retreat/submerge before battle.
• Submarine cost raised from 20 PUs to 25 PUs.
• Cold War Age now consists of 4 turns with no war and 1 turn where the war breaks out.
• Cold War relationship is now a version of neutral. This allows all ships to sail anywhere.

v0.9.2 to v0.9.3
• 15 PU AI Bonus Income Flat Rate is now the default AI setting.
• Altered the strength of Barbarians a bit more. Hopefully weakened them a bit.
• Subs are no longer immune to air only attacks. (Mostly because of too many futile AI air attacks on subs.)
• New start territory PUs values give +2 PUs to west and -2PUs to east. (East seemed a bit stronger)
• War-Robot lowered from 22 to 21 PUs. (It must be a good buy to let AI use them when the Nukes start dropping. They are immune to Nukes.)
• Attack-Drone lowered from 25 to 24 PUs. (It must be a good buy to let AI use them when the Nukes start dropping. They are immune to Nukes.)
• Sail-Ships are now removed in the start of the Modern Age, not the Industrial Age.
• Observation-Balloon now cost 17 PUs, not 16.
• Added the text 'Development gives one free placement' to all Building Tech development tooltips.

v0.9.1 to v0.9.2
General changes:
• 20 PU AI Bonus Income Flat Rate is now the default AI setting.
• Changed a few territory PUs.
• Added missing connection between Ilyria and Sea Zone 13.
• The Black Death can now “build” Plague-units in captured bases.
• Barbarians are now a bit stronger and will place a few more units during the game.
• Added a lot of info to the Notes.
• Other minor changes to XML.
 “Age” changes:
• Age PU bonus income raised from 5,6,7,8,9,10,20,30 to 5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40.
• Renaissance Age now spawns 1 and not 5 Sail-Ships per player.
• Ages will now remove units that are a couple of Ages old. (Starting at turn 16)
Unit changes :
• Caveman can now be supported by Support Footmen and Artillery.
• Changed some early age Develop Tech costs. (Boat is now quickly obtained to help Brittonic)
• Bases may no longer be built in newly captured territories.
• All aircraft units now cost a bit more.
• Changed several Unit PU costs.
• Energy Shields now correctly disrupt enemy attacks (didn’t work before).
• Energy Shields now give -1 to 5 enemy units, not 25 enemy units.
• Added new tooltip-popups to all Develop-Tech purchases.

[beelee]

Looks pretty cool  Frostion. Is it possible to force the AI to buy subs dependent on a dice roll ? Or spawn subs and then take away the corresponding PUs ? Could spawn different amounts on different turns and when they do have the PUs deducted ? Would be sub optimal but would get a few in play anyway.

[crazy_german]

Damn this looks good. On the weekend I'll give it a go. The East vs West is interesting, I think having multiple fronts is usually a good thing on most maps but I'll see what you have in store.

[redrum]

@Frostion - This looks awesome. Just looking it over makes me excited to try it out. I think this might be your best map yet!

I'll address your AI points quickly:
• The AI seems to never buy submarines, no matter what price I set. What to do? (Play Cold War Start to play with subs quickly)
- Yeah AI doesn't buy subs right now since it really doesn't understand how to properly use them. The main reason is that the AI primarily buys naval units to defend transports which includes defending against air units. This will eventually be implemented and I may take a simple pass to add some really basic sub purchase logic in.

• The AI seems to attack submarines with planes, even though the map allows subs to submerge (Air Attack Sub Restricted = true). What to do to prevent this bad AI use of aircraft? (Play Cold War Start to play with subs quickly)
- I thought this was resolved as several WW2 maps have the same functionality. I'll have to take a closer look.

• The AI seems to not make true suicidal/kamikaze attacks (where it expects to sacrifice units and loose from the beginning). Therefore, the units "Rocket", "Nuke" and "Ballistic-Missile" are not used as human players would. The AI only uses these units when expecting to win the battle.
- Yep, the AI has no concept of "Rocket", "Nuke" and "Ballistic-Missile" units currently. I actually don't have a good grasp of them myself since not many maps use them. This could probably be done but probably isn't high on the priority list.

• The AI makes a lot of shopping calculation errors because the use of other resources than PUs, or at least this is what I suspect the AI off. This results in the AI frequently skipping the shopping phase completely. The AI is sometimes severly set back because of this. This problem also affects another map of mine; Dragon War. I know that the AI’s handling of other resources than PUs is on the to-do list, so I am keeping my fingers crossed for a future fix.
- Yep, you already summed this up well.

[Frostion]

@all
No matter how bad/good this experiment of a map works, I have made a nice European map for future mapmakers to use. I think the map looks good and it can easily be used with other game concepts. The original artwork for this map is included in the zip for other mapmakers to use.

@beelee
I would prefer to not ”force” any AI player to use PUs to buy and use subs. I think this could unintentionally harm the AI’s survivability in a situation where other units than naval and subs are needed to not get wiped out. But, the idea about spawning some subs at specific turns (for human and AI players) might be a solution. It could be turns during the Modern Age and Cold War.

@redrum
The AI can fortunately handle the tech system. It can buy, place and shop the new units. But the AI has no idea about what it is doing. It just spends the “Tech” resources on the only units it can buy, and that would be the tech advances. The AI sees them as units. The tech advances are ATM all alike, with 1a/1d/1m. The low stats makes the AI place them “behind the front line”, and place real and more capable PU units closer to the front. I tried out 12a/12d/12m, but his made the AI place them closer to the front, where the real units are much more needed.

There may be no brainpower behind the tech shopping, but there seems to be two notable tendencies:
The advances are part of a skill tree, this means that every time an advancement is bought, that same advancement is removed from the purchase options, and a new unit and a new tech is made purchasable. The tech advance cost goes up and up the further into the skill tree.

What is tendency 1? I can see that the AI is fond of buying all the base type advances, completing the base development line, before any other line of advances. Sometime the AI has modern bunker bases with bowmen and catapults defending it. As the AI does not know what it is buying, there must be another logic to why it prioritizing going down this line. It is actually a problem. The more advanced a tech, the more it costs, so the AI neglects all the other cheaper and more useful advances, and thereby falling behind in unit effectiveness.

Does this behavior have something to do with where in the XML the tech units are listed? Are the newest available units more attractive to buy? Is it because of the shopping being skipped sometimes, which leads to the AI having stockpiles of “tech” resources, and then the AI just buys the most expensive/advanced tech? (Eventhough they are all 1a/1d/1m)

What is tendency 2? It seems that when an AI gains access to new units, and afterwards makes a successful purchase, it has chosen to buy and place like a ton of this new unit. Sometimes the AI has; let’s say 10 footmen, and then it gains access to a catapult unit that can support the footmen. The AI (and it can have a lot of PUs in the bank because of the purchase skipping) is frequently seen buying 10 catapults, even though that would not be cost effective (PU/support wise). Maybe it is just me that can’t see the current costeffectivness of the different units? Maybe you can also see this tendency?

[crazy_german]

Meant to play for 30 minutes last night. Ended up playing till 4 AM....

This map has great potential and you should be more optimistic about it! While I do see some issues with unit balance, I had a great time playing it. I did a game as just Britton, all other factions set to AI. I found the events of the game very enjoyable, the fall of nature and surprise rise of the plague. The tech tree is brilliant, I really wish there was an easy way to see who has what tech though.

I'm only 1/2 a game in, however I do have a couple thoughts

-Support footmen seem to be kinda meh. The siege weapons are better value most of the time
-I wasn't a big fan of each side getting 5 sail ships for free at the start of the Renaissance. This creates a huge power swing in the Mediteranean, while Britton/France have basically useless ships for a couple turns.
-The base upgrades seem kinda unnecessary. Forts/Castles provide plenty of deployment given the huge unit cost relative to income.  The defense bonus is nice, but a fort+castle alone can boost 25 allied units. Also, you can play really nomadic if you want. Bases are cheap relative to unit costs.
-The creeping costs has some issues. I'm purposely keeping certain units low tech so I have access to a cheap fodder option. It also helps for purchasing. If a power ends up with all units in the middle-age tech level, it can find itself unable to spend 41 PUs, since all units cost 21. Instead it has to leave a big chunk unspent and only buy a single unit.

Great work on the map (and the art as well).

[Frostion]

@crazy_german
Nice to see that you were hooked on playing the map!  I have also played several times and it does take hours. Also, nice feedback. I hope others will give their thoughts just like you did, and maybe comment on some of the same issues. I would really like to compare what people experience.

Support footmen
I have tried to balance them to the price of footmen of the same timeperiod. This is the current config:

Axeman 2A/2D (15PU)              (No support footman in this age)
Spearman 2A/3D (17 PU)              Slinger 2A/2D/Give+1 (15 PU)
Swordsman 3A/4D (19 PU)              Bowman 3A/3D/Give+1 (17 PU)
Halberdman 4A/5D (21 PU)              Crosbowmen 4A/4D/Give+1 (19 PU)
Catapult 3A/1D/Give+1 to 3 units (19 PU) is from the same age as Spearman and Slinger.

Battle Calculator Odds:
64 Slingers (960 PU) attacks 45 Spearmen = 21% win rate
57 Spearmen (969 PU) attacks 45 Spearmen = 4% win rate
30 Slingers+30 Spearmen (960 PU) attacks 45 Spearmen = 50% win rate
          Conclusion: Slingers and Spearmen is a good combination

51 Catapults (969 PU) attacks 45 Spearmen = 41% win rate (Pretty high! But they only have 1 defense, so maybe this is fair?)
42 Spearmen+13 Catapults (961 PU) attacks 45 Spearmen = 66% win rate
25 Slingers+25 Spearmen+8 Catapults (952 PU) attacks 45 Spearmen = 83% win rate
          Conclusion: Slingers, Spearmen and Catapults is an even better combination

But, this leaves me to ask: Should the catapult price be raised from 19 to 20 PUs? The combination Catapult+Spearmen vs Slingers+Spearmen is 66% vs. 50%. One is wise to choose Catapults if going on the offence. Is this OK? On the other side, the Catapults have double ship transport cost and they are much more poor in defense.
(90 spearmen attacking 30 Slingers+30 Spearmen = Win 43%.
90 spearmen attacking 13 Catapults + 42 Spearmen = Win 73%)

The 5 sail ships to every tribe in the Renaissance
This was something that I put in to help get some action on the seas. It seems like there is little reason and willingness to use ships. Only the Brittonic has a real incentive to buy ships. But maybe the count should be lowered from 5 to 3?

The base upgrades seem kinda unnecessary
Yes, I have been struggling with this. I do not want the factories to be too cheap and flooding the map. Neither too expensive. I am all ears when it comes to concrete ideas for changes. At the moment it is possible to build in newly conquered territory, maybe this should change? Should the price be higher?

The creeping costs has some issues
The creeping cost must be a fine balance. If the cost was the same and only the units got better, then the other support units would be outdated instantly. If this was the case, then I figure that if a player had a selection of 3-4 “classical units” and then got his/her hands on just one “medieval unit”, then this new unit would be the only thing worth buying. I really hope to have a price balance that would allow older units to still work with new units.

I'm purposely keeping certain units low tech so I have access to a cheap fodder option 
I have tried to make some calculations regarding this:
32 Slingers + 32 Spearmen (1024 PU) attacks 50 Spearmen = 31% win rate
25 Crossbowmen + 25 Halberdmen (1000 PU) attacks 50 Spearmen = 88% win rate
Conclusion: Higher age units should be a better buy. Or am I missing some aspect of this?

Only buy a single unit because of price
I have tried to avoid the players from having too much money. I can’t stand a map that is flooded with units. (It seems that the AI will always end up having hundreds of units. It plays so “safe” and defensive). As the game progresses, like in the Renaissance Age, the player get more PUs to spend. In the endgame, I think players end up with territory income + 40 PUs. I would like to hear what the economy feels like in the later ages, also when playing on a map like the Cold War. The three maps follow the same rules.
However, it is absolutely not the idea that players should buy only a single unit every turn.

[Cernel]

Axeman 2A/2D (15PU)
Spearman 2A/3D (17 PU)
Swordsman 3A/4D (19 PU)
Halberdman 4A/5D (21 PU)

That's making the Spearman into a close to useless unit to buy.

1 Axeman + 1 Swordsman would have +1 attack power and same defence power as 2 Spearman and it would be also decreasing slower upon taking hits. With these values the Spearman should cost 16 or the Swordsman should cost 21 or 22 (at cost 20 the spearman would be still bad).

But then there is the Halberdman that makes both the Spearman and the Swordsman obsolete, even more.

1 Axeman + 1 Halberdman = cost 36 and 6/7
1 Spearman + 1 Swordsman = cost 36 and 5/7
and the first is even better cause less loss upon taking hits.

With those values the costs should be:

Axeman 15
Spearman 17
Swordsman 21 or little more
Halberdman 26 or little more

Generally, I would suggest avoiding having so many units: way too much and too hard micromanagement of the optimal composition. I can tell you that already in Napoleonic Empires most people can't get how to optimize the composition.

[crazy_german]

Only one unit of each "type" is available at a time. eg you cannot buy axeman once you unlocked spearmen. With that said, I don't see spearmen as a worthwhile early tech, especially when competing boats, forts and catapults (all very useful).

@Frostion - I could definitely see Hattic going heavy Navy as well. I'll post my save once I win (currently hold 6 VCs) and more thoughts.

[Frostion]

@Cernel
“That's making the Spearman into a close to useless unit to buy.” - Yes, and this is no problem. One cannot buy the Axeman after developing sprearman, and one cannot buy Spearman after developing Swordsman, and so on. “then there is the Halberdman that makes both the Spearman and the Swordsman obsolete, even more.” Yes

“Generally, I would suggest avoiding having so many units” - In this map I think there is only access to 5-7 units at a time (including ships and air). But overall there is like 50-55 units, but they don’t all come at one time.

EDIT: ... I think i just repeated what crazy_german said.

[crazy_german]

Here is a completed game
FeedbackGame.tsvg

I wasn't sure what was going on at times, if the gamenotes had information on when the ages began, and the income that is associated, it would be great. Also, if I could know what the unit I'm considering unlocking does before unlocking it would be very convenient. I would recommend using the tooltips feature and possibly customized production tabs. I would love to have some visualization of who has developed what weapons as well.

Frostion wrote

@crazy_german
Support footmen
I have tried to balance them to the price of footmen of the same timeperiod. This is the current config:

Axeman 2A/2D (15PU)              (No support footman in this age)
Spearman 2A/3D (17 PU)              Slinger 2A/2D/Give+1 (15 PU)
Swordsman 3A/4D (19 PU)              Bowman 3A/3D/Give+1 (17 PU)
Halberdman 4A/5D (21 PU)              Crosbowmen 4A/4D/Give+1 (19 PU)
Catapult 3A/1D/Give+1 to 3 units (19 PU) is from the same age as Spearman and Slinger.

The upgrade axemen to spearmen is somewhat weak. If you made axemen not receive support, it could help. Right now I see spamming axemen for a couple turns while I build catapults as a great offensive strategy. Then go from spearmen to swordsmen as fast as possible. You can use base buildings to compensate for a little bit of extra defense to counter-act the catapult's low defense power.

Frostion wrote

The 5 sail ships to every tribe in the Renaissance
This was something that I put in to help get some action on the seas. It seems like there is little reason and willingness to use ships. Only the Brittonic has a real incentive to buy ships. But maybe the count should be lowered from 5 to 3?

The issue I see is that ships of the line have huge transport capacity and movement, and by giving me a good number I have no reason to try and research them. They don't have a huge combat advantage over galleys, and 5 (or even 3) is enough to transport many troops quite far. I don't like seeing a navy pop up for free that can sink a decent sized force of galleys.

Frostion wrote

The base upgrades seem kinda unnecessary
Yes, I have been struggling with this. I do not want the factories to be too cheap and flooding the map. Neither too expensive. I am all ears when it comes to concrete ideas for changes. At the moment it is possible to build in newly conquered territory, maybe this should change? Should the price be higher?

Is there a specific reason you wanted to build in newly conquered territories? It is a decent feature when expanding camps into the wilderness, but generally I don't like it. Losing all your old bases can really mess up the AI and doesn't appeal to me much either. 1 deployment is quite a bit and caves get stuck on the map if they trade ownership or are captured from the Barbarians.

Frostion wrote

The creeping costs has some issues
The creeping cost must be a fine balance. If the cost was the same and only the units got better, then the other support units would be outdated instantly. If this was the case, then I figure that if a player had a selection of 3-4 “classical units” and then got his/her hands on just one “medieval unit”, then this new unit would be the only thing worth buying. I really hope to have a price balance that would allow older units to still work with new units.

This probably needs more playtesting to really get a good handle on, but I will say this. Multiple times I planned to get a certain unit ahead of the rest and spam it, however the other units caught up pretty quick since I have plenty of tech income. Mixed armies are also much stronger. Maybe Slavic or Celtic could just go pure high tech cavalry? To me, none of the units seem very good as a stand alone class. I haven't tried to tech rush to an extreme degree, it is structured pretty well to discourage doing so.

Frostion wrote

I'm purposely keeping certain units low tech so I have access to a cheap fodder option 
I have tried to make some calculations regarding this:
32 Slingers + 32 Spearmen (1024 PU) attacks 50 Spearmen = 31% win rate
25 Crossbowmen + 25 Halberdmen (1000 PU) attacks 50 Spearmen = 88% win rate
Conclusion: Higher age units should be a better buy. Or am I missing some aspect of this?

My point was to leave just one unit type (slingers) really far behind and use just them as a fodder option. Use modern infantry + modern siege for the bulk of the damage (like Musketeer and Cannon), and have the option to buy slingers as cheap fodder.

Frostion wrote

Only buy a single unit because of price
I have tried to avoid the players from having too much money. I can’t stand a map that is flooded with units. (It seems that the AI will always end up having hundreds of units. It plays so “safe” and defensive). As the game progresses, like in the Renaissance Age, the player get more PUs to spend. In the endgame, I think players end up with territory income + 40 PUs. I would like to hear what the economy feels like in the later ages, also when playing on a map like the Cold War. The three maps follow the same rules.
However, it is absolutely not the idea that players should buy only a single unit every turn.

My point wasn't that you only buy a single unit. For example if I have 59 to spend and just unlocked axemen, it is bothersome to only be able to buy 3 units (if I still had cavemen I could buy 4). I like the low value of territories relative to unit costs, though it does discourage trading territory (which is the majority of combat on a regular map)

[crazy_german]

Here is a game from the Renaissance era
AoT_RenaissanceFeedback.tsvg

I think that ground is pretty well balanced. The biggest issue I saw was naval combat and base buildings. Sail ships are really powerful. Hellinic, Romanic, and Baltic are all quite vulnerable to naval attacks and bombarding, and you begin the game with enough naval power to transport large armies. 5 sail-ships is more transport capacity and bombarding power than I would ever need.

I think to improve Naval combat, you ought to be able to purchase the latest two ships. So you don't lose access to boats until you develop sail-ships. You lose galleys when you unlock iron-clad, etc. Then tweak the unit stats so that your two types of ships always have a slightly different role. So Boat and sail-ship would be defensive ships good for transporting. Galleys and ironclads are offensive warships with option to bombard. Keep going with this alternating system of utility ship, then combat ship. I would consider making ships more expensive or having less transport capacity generally, otherwise a small cheap navy can move huge armies.

Bases also have issues. You can see that Germanic built a trail of castles as he marched across Eastern Europe. At 40 PUs they are a steal, +15 defense and it costs less than two footsoldiers. 3 deployment is often enough for an entire nations deployment. I'm not sure how to fix them though

This game had a great example of a potential issue with creeping costs. On turn 38, Britton had 92 to spend. I would have loved to buy 4 musketeers (which costs exactly 92), however I just unlocked riflemen. This meant i could only buy 3 units! With this said I think reforming navy and bases ought to be the priority.

[Frostion]

That is a lot of good konstruktiv feedback. I already have a lot of changes planned for beta version 0.9.2, but it will be a week or so before I have time to work on and complete the changes.

[captaincrunch]

so this is an Age of Empires type mod for the Triple A engine right. I just posted to say I look forward to some posts about how the battles went just to get a feel for how the game plays because it sounds interesting

[redrum]

@Frostion - Very interesting map. I played about 15 rounds as Brittonic. Some thoughts:
- AI definitely has major purchase issues as it tries to buy all the techs since it thinks they are 'free' which causes most of it purchase turns to fail. This causes it to end up with hundreds on PUs sitting around. I think I can put a small fix in so that it avoids purchase fails.
- I didn't really like how long it took to get boats as Brittonic. Had a few turns of just sitting around on my already fully conquered island. Maybe there should be a boat unit available from the start?
- Along this same line, I wonder if it would be better to add more land bridges. I guess it depends how important you want naval units to be.
- Upgrade wise it seems to be almost better to keep axeman around and not upgrade that line so you can buy fodder units. Then either tech horse or siege line for damage units.
- Forts are really overpowered as they are pretty cheap, provide good defense, and can be built the turn a territory is conquered. Fort spam is real.
- It would be nice to have a table of unit stats so I can determine what I want to tech to.
- Personal preference: I'm not a fan of the Napoleonic style map. I think it makes it hard to see what territories are controlled by who. Would really prefer it to fill in the territories with nation color.

[crazy_german]

Would you mind sharing some of the planned changes? There is so much going on in this map that I have not commented on everything I noticed and I'd be happy to share some thoughts.

Here is another game AoT_TribalFeedback.tsvg I feel that the nations that had poor dice or made mistakes are losing, which is a decent sign for balance. It looks bleak for the East but I haven't given up yet.

An issue that shows up here is the original territories. The West coast of Turkey will always be captured by Hattic, not Hellinic. And having those revert to Hellinic took Hattic's ports away, sealing the deal on a losing mediteranean battle. I'm concerned that Celtic rushing to take Sicily and putting a fort there is a really powerful strategy. Perhaps my Slavic was too slow to enter the game?

@captaincrunch - I would recommend leaving all tribes but 1 AI controlled and jumping into a game. I really enjoyed my first game partially because i was discovering new things and getting surprised. It has some similarity to Age of Empires, though not too much

@Redrum - I generally agree and strongly agree with fort spam and the need for a unit chart.
I think that their ought to be a land bridge over the Turkish straits at minimum. If you update the AI, could you do it so that the Develop-XYZ unit will no longer need to have attack/defense/movement for AI to buy? Currently those units crowd the battle calculator

[redrum]

@Frostion - The latest pre-release should now have support for all resources. I ran Age of Tribes for 30 turns with no purchase failures. AI now is at least functional on the map IMO.

That being said I think it showed a couple of things:
- Is there a reason for the 5 turn battle round cap? I don't think the AI handles this well currently. I believe the reason is it doesn't like 'draws' and most units have low attack/defense power in comparison to hit points so draws are very common. This seems to cause lots of stalemates and units building up. I think at around turn 30 the overall TUV for each side was around 6k-7k!
- Number of unit types really clutters the map. You might want to consider upgrading or removing existing units as you tech up. Otherwise you end up with 20-30 unit types potentially sitting in a territory and you can't see anything!
- Briton really struggles as it needs boats earlier. In general, seem like the West are stronger at least when all Hard AI since they have less naval need.

Let me know what you think with the latest changes.

[crazy_german]

I played this game all day Sunday and had a great time. Here are some save games
ColdWarGame_Romanic.tsvg
Started in cold war, only played as Romanic. I think the peace ought to be much shorter, 2 turns maybe. The West easily conquered the East, though I think my personal impact wasn't that big. Nukes are fun. Air is way too good. Too cheap, moves too far, and being a stepping stone to nuclear weapons is great. Pure air is actually a viable strategy. Subs + Air make defensive fleets impossible.

RenaissanceGame_Hellenic.tsvg
Started in Renaissance, only played as Hellenic. Quickly took Rome and the Eastern Med. Couldn't break through the disgusting unit stacks and fortifications of Romanic and Celtic for a very long time. I like observation balloons, they provide a much needed fodder unit.Barrage Balloons are really weird and really bad. They only roll at most 1 AA dice on 1/12 which is just awful.

RenaissanceGame_Germanic.tsvg
Started in Renaissance, only played as Germanic. Late game air once again shows to be too powerful. Airplanes need less movement (especially the air transports). Maybe this would work?
Unit                   Movement
Warplane............3
Fighter...............4
Jet Fighter..........5
Air Transport.......5 or 6
Bomber...............6
Stealth Bomber.....7 or 8

A general comment on unit prices - once all the territory has been claimed your income stagnates; combined with rising prices, this means that you purchase less and less unit as time goes on. End up only buying 3 units sometimes. Feels wrong since my tribe spans a huge area and has several bases, some of which can place 4 or 5 units. Perhaps the bonus income for the newer ages should be higher?

Possible errors - In the info-graphic cavemen are listed as receiving support when they cannot. Missing connection between Ilyria and Sea Zone 13

PS - I think the reason that West seems to beat East is because AI play britton better than hattic (who ought to just play itself like an island)

[Frostion]

OK. This is more feedback than I could have hoped for. I can see that there is a lot of stuff to work on.

Now when the latest prerelease of Hard AI does not skip purchases anymore (), I guess the AI will be a whole new adversary. I will have to test the map a few times (a few times 5 hours … LOL! ) and also with the changes I have made already, thanks to all the feedback:

0.9.2 Changes:
• AI-Barbarians now have more reduced income.
• 25 PU AI Bonus Income Flat Rate is now the default AI setting.
• Bases may no longer be built in newly captured territories.
• EDIT: All base types now do not give 5,10,15 and so on units +1 def. Now a Camp gives 1 unit +1 def, Fort gives 2 units +1 def, Castle gives 3 units +1 def and so on.
• Players now start with 15 PUs and not 20.
• All air plane units now cost approximately 10 PU more.
• War-Robot price raised from 22 to 23 PUs.
• Renaissance Age now spawns 1 and not 5 Sail-Ships per player.
• Stealth Bomber text and explanation added to game notes. (I will add more "special" unit explanations)
• Energy Shields now correctly disrupt enemy attacks (didn’t work before).
• Energy Shields now give -1 to 5 enemy units, not 25 enemy units.
• Added missing connection between Ilyria and Sea Zone 13.
• Age PU bonus raised from 5,6,7,8,9,10,20,30 to 5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40.
• Ages will now remove units that are a couple of Ages old.
Changes to do before releasing 0.9.2:
• Age and Unit information in the game notes.
• +all the changes I will probably make while testing the new conditions.

Maybe I should advise you guys to stop playing the map until I get the new version out. I would hate if you got an overdose and got tired of playing it. It would be nice to also get feedback when the next version is out.
Thanks for all the help

crazy_german wrote

An issue that shows up here is the original territories. The West coast of Turkey will always be captured by Hattic, not Hellinic. And having those revert to Hellinic took Hattic's ports away, sealing the deal on a losing mediteranean battle.

Yes. This feature is meant to ensure that a nearly whipped out player has a chance to getback into the game. I can see that is also has some drawbacks, and maybe it does not Work as intended. But right now I don’t know what else to implement as a substitute.

crazy_german wrote

I think the reason that West seems to beat East is because AI play britton better than hattic (who ought to just play itself like an island.)

I noticed this too. But I hope Hattic’s “long walk” with unit towards the front could be balanced out buy Brittonics island start. But I will have to look closer into this.

crazy_german wrote

Observation Balloons provide a much needed fodder unit. Barrage Balloons are really weird and really bad. They only roll at most 1 AA dice on 1/12 which is just awful.

Yes, they are probably not that well balanced/priced. Please help with suggestion to new unit stats.

crazy_german wrote

Airplanes need less movement (especially the air transports).

I am actually pretty happy with them flying a long way. I hope the airplanes and transports will add a new gamechanger when they arrive, just like blitzing, rockets, nukes and other stuff hopefully do.

[Frostion]

redrum wrote

I didn't really like how long it took to get boats as Brittonic. Had a few turns of just sitting around on my already fully conquered island. Maybe there should be a boat unit available from the start?

I have also noticed this problem. I will have to figure out how to tackle this little nuisance.

redrum wrote

Is there a reason for the 5 turn battle round cap?

Well, I thought that it would be a good way to prevent the early battles taking tooooo looooong. I mean with Cavemen clubbing each other with a 1 on a d12 could take a long time. I guess human defenders would use the pause of the unfinished battle to put in reinforcements and beat the attacker. I hope the AI can figure this out, now or some day in the future.