AI Development Discussion

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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
Administrator
@Lasse i Gatan - Good points. I think most of them are captured in the TODO list. Carriers/planes is definitely getting close to the top of the list.

@captaincrunch - Yeah, now that the AI follows the v1 placement rules it definitely performs much better on classic.

@all - if you haven't voted yet on the latest AI priorities thread please do here as I'll probably review the results shortly: http://poll.fm/58pgo
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Re: AI Development Discussion

captaincrunch
Oh cool that poll link works but I don't even know some of those things and will trust the order you end up doing it. If you finish all those objectives then tell us so we know the AI is practically done.
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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
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@all - Just committed latest changes and updated pre-release. Initial release of landing on carriers functionality. Still needs some work and need to add purchasing carriers.
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Re: AI Development Discussion

Veqryn
Administrator
thats awesome!

so, when do you think we should release 1.8.0.7?

my guess would be to give the air/carriers thing another month or two to stabilize
Please contribute to the TripleA 2013 donation drive:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/2013-TripleA-Donation-Drive-tp7583455.html
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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
Administrator
@Veqryn - That's probably about right. I'd like to add carrier/air purchase and probably do some tweaks to the initial release. So probably 1 more major patch for it in the next week or 2 then let things stabilize for a month.
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Re: AI Development Discussion

captaincrunch
Alllright was fun testing the latest .jar update and I lost the 1st match but won the next 2;


Match 1: I was the Allies and the AI was the Axis and I forfeited my 1st turn with Russia for fun and I chugged along thinking I was doing ok but the Japan AI marched and the German AI was strong and I gave up around round 9 or 10 after my Russian capitol fell and the Axis AI was too big.




Match 2: I was the Allies and the AI was the Axis again but I didn't forfeit my 1st turn with Russia for fun and I played Russia well having lots of pieces and held the Japan AI in check and took the German AI capitol in round 5 and then finally finished off the Japan AI capitol in round 16;



latestaxisaidefeated17.tsvg






Match 3: I was the Axis and the AI was the Allies and this is a tough scenario being just 2 countries against 3 AI countries but I kept a good German Airforce and I was steady with Japan and took the Russian AI capitol in round 7 and then took awhile to build Navys because of the AI managing its Airforce well so I finally took the UK AI capitol in round 25 and then took the USA AI capitol in round 28;



latestalliesaidefeated17.tsvg




@redrum the AI felt the same so nothing I can think to suggest BUT the 2nd gamesave where I beat the Allies AI I actually saw the AI leave its Russian AI capitol empty again. I saw it happen before but I only save the games I win so I was glad it happened so you can check it out. I don't know if you believe me it happened before because there was no gamesave but here in round 7 you can see the Russian AI left its capitol bare for me to take freely. Hope the saves help ya. The AI Plane logic and Navy logic are for sure solid. Good luck with the rest!


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Re: AI Development Discussion

Black Elk
In reply to this post by redrum
I've been busy lately at work but had a chance this afternoon to try a quick game. Thought I'd play against HardAI allies this time. Gave them a bid of 24 ipcs, 12 Russia, 6 to UK and 6 to USA, which they all used for infantry.

Moscow crush, Axis honorable victory in the 12th.

I didn't notice a change in the carrier play, though perhaps that's because its not yet a factor at purchase? Allies did allow a couple defenseless transport sweeps, where Germany sank like 5 at a go, against both the British and the Americans at various points.

I saw the abandon Moscow move by the Russians, but this was only when they were facing down an insurmountable German force, at which point they bailed on the capital and withdrew to Vologda. This might have been interesting, if they'd used their units to smash north to Arch, but instead they went south to Novos and just got reamed after Moscow was snatched.

Perhaps a game vs HardAI Japan would be more instructive for the naval game, since they start with two carriers, but I didn't catch any planes landing on carriers in this game. Will try again soon vs HardAI Axis per usual

HardAI_Allies_vs_Elk,_Allies_bid_24,_round_12_Moscow_crush.tsvg
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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
Administrator
@Black_Elk - Good catch on the transports. The AI was still overvaluing defending factories when having to leave undefended transports. I added some additional logic and tested against this save: test.tsvg

And yeah since the allies don't really start with any carriers that survive you don't see much difference :)
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Re: AI Development Discussion

Black Elk
Saw some carrier grouping early on in this game vs HardAI Axis, at least for a few rounds with Japan.

HardAI Japan almost had an epic climax at the very end, with a sneaky move into E. Canada to threaten the American capital! But then they botched the invasion of E. USA. Alas, the dice gods were cruel and the power of the ancestors abandoned the Japanese armies, right as they about to snatch Axis victory from the jaws of defeat. Ultra dud in the first round of combat! heheh

 In the same round UK took Berlin, so that basically sealed it for allies. Did notice another transport sweep. This time it was 5 undefended Japanese transports in sz 36 that got nuked by British fighters from India.

Allies clinched it in the 13th, after the final Japanese drive against north America failed spectacularly.

HardAI_Axis_vs_Elk_KGF_round_13.tsvg
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Re: AI Development Discussion

Lasse i Gatan
In reply to this post by redrum
I have tested the new AI patch several times on my own map. Since the map has been tweaked several times too, I upload only the latest two games saved, together with the finished map.
The saves are from two different sessions. I play the Brown nation, all others nations hard AI.
In save 1 I lost my capitol on round 15 and quit the game on my next turn.
In save 2 I lost my capitol on round 11 and quit on my next turn.
In both games the enemy team had the upper hand at the time of my quit.

Feedback:
Carrier landing: Planes are now landing on carriers, although not always. Look especially at the opening turns.
Even allies sometimes land on each others carriers. Nice! Is there any priority, if both own carrier and allied carrier are landing options?  
I do not know the formula for when not to land on a carrier, so this is all feedback I can give for now.

On my map most territores start as neutrals. Hard AI has for many iterations been good at capturing them and expanding the rival nations. There are only a few exceptions.
Here are some observations on my map, that might be of interest to Redrum:
- While Green sometimes attack the neutral island VC of 0904, Grey never attacks the neutral island VC of 0502. Conditions are the same.
- Grey, Red and Brown never invade the island continent made up of neutral territories. Purple does, however. It is the value 3 territory that attracts Purple the most.
- Green purchases many transports. Transport capacity purchased often exceed embarkable transport weight. Yellow does this too, but not at the same level as Green.
- Green often has difficulty unload and invade. Afraid perhaps to lose the beachhead to a counter-attack?
- AI builds more armor than I think humans do. Has it still an emphasis for movement? It is not a problem however and it might be about my personal taste. Since I get busted in these games, I shall not argue about purchases, except for transport capacity.

I would like to advocate for AI purchase repair damaged ICs.

Here is game and saves.HexagonMap8.zip
Hexagonmap8_save1.tsvg
Hexagonmap8_save2.tsvg

Let me know if anything is missing
 
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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
Administrator
@all - Just committed the latest changes and updated the pre-release:
- Added carrier purchases
- Fixed lots of carrier bugs
- Fixed several transport defense bugs
- Added more logic for destroyers

@Lasse i Gatan - Good feedback. I'll try to review your save games this week.
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Re: AI Development Discussion

Lasse i Gatan
- Carrier purchase seems to work fine, with good proportions to other units. That goes to purcase of carrier+fighter(s) too. Nice!
 Shall play more games and look for devations.
- Planes are better now landing on carriers. Nice to see fleets of 2-3 carriers with 3-4 planes on them!
 Still: AI sometimes makes carriers (and fleets) vulnerable, by not landing a plane on it for defence.
  Look especially at save5, Yellow player´s round 1 and 8 and its south fleet.
 
- I forgot to watch for undefended transports. Cannot recall I had easy Tp kills. I shall be more observant to that and to the improved destroyer logic.

Both games played with latest update.
Hexagonmap8_save4.tsvg
Hexagonmap8_save5.tsvg
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Re: AI Development Discussion

panguitch
In Greyhawk Wars I've now seen the Hard AI land dragons on its own and allied ships--which never happened before. Beautiful sight. Thanks for this improvement. The dragons also are pretty smart about landing in safe areas generally.

While looking at this I noticed or was reminded of two other things. These two issues may well be unique to Greyhawk, but in case they're useful to you, here they are, along with a save game with examples.

dragoncarriers.tsvg

(1) The AI almost never purchases ships on its own, and doesn't place those that are purchased for it by trigger. I wonder if it's because Greyhawk ships are all-in-one warships/transports/carriers, and this confuses it.

Example: Nyrond buys a galley in round 24. This is the only ship purchased in this game, and the exception that proves the rule. I think it only buys it because the hero is in Bone March, a territory that only allows the placement of bowmen, fortifications, and ships. It also placed 2 bowmen there, reaching it's limit of 3 units for the territory. Note that by the end of the game there are almost no ships left on the map. So the AI knows how to use them, it just doesn't buy them.

Or maybe it doesn't buy them because Greyhawk is primarily a land-focused map? Although even a faction like the Scarlet Brotherhood, whose major territories comprise a virtual island (peninsula closed off by impassable terrain), never purchases ships. Even if SB is left with only island territories, it will just stack land troops instead of buying ships.

Example: By game's end, round 26, the Scarlet Brotherhood's only factories are all massed on the quasi-island peninsula. But instead of building ships it keeps stacking land units.

Here's a separate save game showing that the AI doesn't place ships added to its purchase by trigger. Note that this isn't new to your latest jar, I've seen it in previous versions too. Also note that the AI is happy to place land units that are added to its purchase by trigger, just not ships. To demonstrate this, in this save game I use edit to force a trigger that gives Suel 3 ships and a sellsword. I also set Suel's PUs at five so Suel can't buy enough units to reach its placement limits and thus has "room" to place the ships. It buys and places a conscript, and it also places the sellsword given by trigger. But it doesn't place the ships. noplaceship.tsvg


(2) Hard AI never moves mobile factories via ships. Mobile factories that can board transports don't exist in many maps, so this is an unusual situation and I'm not surprised the AI doesn't consider it.

Example: The Scarlet Brotherhood can only place new factories on its quasi-island peninsula. By game's end all its other factories are destroyed. And it never moves any of the peninsula factories elsewhere via ship, even though it does move combat troops via ship.

Note that in round 8 both Great Kingdom and Nyrond land dragons on a ship during non-combat. There are several more instances of this throughout the game. Yay!

Greyhawk Wars
TripleA in the original Dungeons & Dragons world

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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
Administrator
@Lasse i Gatan - Overall, looks pretty good. I'm working on improving naval non-combat move and defense so hopefully it'll be even better in the next pre-release.

@panguitch - Responses:

1. The AI prefers land units in general and will usually only build ships if its an island or very far from the enemy territory. It doesn't understand impassable terrain at a strategic level which is probably why it has issues with the virtual island.

Logic doesn't yet exist to place ships that aren't purchased. It will place land units that aren't purchased but not ships. There just aren't any other maps that did this. It can be added just low priority.

2. Yeah, the AI won't move mobile factories by transport yet. This is relevant to Naploneonic Empires as well but really is a very minor thing for the most part as usually factories can be built on other land masses.
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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
Administrator
@all - Committed latest changes and updated the pre-release:
- Fixed some more carrier issues
- Enhanced naval non-combat move to avoid stuck units (no more Bermuda Triangle!)
- Enhanced naval combat move to better determine when to use air vs sea units
- Enhanced naval non-combat to try and defend sea purchase territories better

Please test and let me know how it goes!
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Re: AI Development Discussion

captaincrunch
Woo ya. Ok I played the update before this 5 games and will post it and then do the latest update eventually.  I did 5 games and won the 2nd and 5th matchs.

Match 1: I was the allies and the ai was the axis and I forfeited my 1st turn with Russia for fun and I thought I had a half decent start but the Japan ai rolled and the German ai held and I was overwhelmed and maybe gave up round 10

Match 2: I was the allies and the ai was the axis again and I didn't forfeit my 1st turn with Russia for fun and I did well actually and took the German ai capitol in round 6 and then ended it taking the Japan ai capitol in round 12;


latestaxisaidefeated18.tsvg




Match 3: I was the axis and the ai was the allies and I didn't have a great start or great game and the USA ai and UK ai built a quick Navy and I was slow using Japan and Germany fell just as Japan was taking the Russian ai but the ai had an Economic Victory early in round 8 and it had too much money and units so it was over maybe I quit round 10

Match 4: this was a redo of Match 3 and I did a little better and thought I could hold off the allied ai Navy but I was again not fast enough with Japan and Germany was lasting a bit longer but I stretched the game to 19 rounds and took the Russian ai capitol once but the axis ai took Germany and Japan was almost rolled so I gave up

Match 5: the was a rematch of Match 3 and 4 and this time I had a good victory battle in Karelia to start and that made all the difference and I also kept Planes with Germany and I played Japan well and I actually had a strong good match .... again all from the start of that 1st Karelia battle win. I took the Russia ai capitol in round 3, the UK ai capitol in round 12, and the USA ai capitol in round 15;


latestalliesaidefeated18.tsvg



I didn't see anything the ai did that I wouldn't. I look for what you've fixed and changed but overall I only noticed some ai Planes on ai Carriers now and that did seem more tough now. Good stuff and I'll keep battling the updates  and get back to you.

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Re: AI Development Discussion

redrum
Administrator
@all - Committed latest changes and updated the pre-release:
- Fixed some more carrier issues
- Fixed some naval non-combat issues
- Enhanced casualty selection to consider unit value
- Updated purchases to better consider neutral distance

Please test and let me know how it goes!
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Re: AI Development Discussion

captaincrunch
Awesome! I just finished 3 matches with the last ai update and won the last 2 matches:



Match 1: I was the allies and the ai was the axis and I forfeited my 1st turn with Russia for fun and I think I held for awhile but I couldn't hold off the Japan ai from taking Russia and I think the ai Planes slowed my UK and USA Navy attempt and my UK capitol fell and then I gave up eventually round 15 maybe


Match 2: rematch of match 1 but I didn't forfeit my 1st turn with Russia and I'm pretty sure Russia held long enough for my UK and USA Transport assault on the Germany ai and I played well and took the Germany ai capitol in round 7 and then ended the match taking the Japan ai capitol in round 17;
latestaxisaidefeated19.tsvg



Match 3: I was the axis and the ai was the allies and I got a good 1st battle with Germany in Karelia and eventually took the Russian ai capitol in round 6 and then kept enough Planes to get at the UK ai's waters and then took the UK ai's capitol in round 24 and then ended the match by taking the USA ai's capitol in round 31;

latestalliesaidefeated19.tsvg





The ai Navy is for sure as tough as ever and for my matches I only remember the UK ai landing 8 lone Planes in South Africa that I only reached with my 2 Japan kamikaze Planes and 2 Tanks ... its in the last save in round 7. I can't think of any other easy spots against the ai but also I got a "Military Victory" message now I think is new but I only got it in my win against the Axis ai and not against the Allies ai ... I even played an extra round or so to try to get it in that last save. Not sure if thats a bug or not. Was a blast though and will run this latest ai update and get back to you when I can. Glad you are chugging along!

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Re: AI Development Discussion

Black Elk
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by redrum
First game with the new jar. v5 per usual. This time I thought I'd face down against hard AI Allies, to see how they'd handle the carrier game.

I went cutthroat, and gave HardAI Allies the memorial day bonus bid of 12 ipcs each. The machine decided that Russia and UK would use their bid for ground, and USA for an extra Atlantic cruiser. As Japan I did the factory spam, no IJN support. Germany just went to town with the bombers! Cracked Moscow in the 7th, but I did notice some USA Atlantic carrier action, which was cool.
carrier_game_hardAI_allies.tsvg

And here is one against hard AI Axis. Japan took panama in this game, but to no avail.
Remembering our Allied war dead with a KGF in the 10th hehe
carrier_game_hardAI_axis.tsvg

Finally a game where HardAI Axis fared much better. This one featured a glorious carrier battle in the waters off India in the fifth round. HardAI Japan stacked 4 decks on defense. This match was also notable for the purchase of a Graf Zeppelin Carrier by Super Germany (late game, out of the captured Karelia factory) in the very round when they sacked Moscow! Human Allies just got smoked this time. HardAI Axis laughs at this sub par KJF plan. Enjoyably murdered by the machine to round out the night ;)
carrier_game_Super_G.tsvg

Well done HardAI Axis! happy memorial day!

ps.
LATE NIGHT...
Here is another game just concluded vs hardAI Allies (again 12 ipcs to each.) This time Russia and USA used their bid for armor and UK used theirs on the water. I think this game shows why it would be nice if HardAI could strat bomb.

By the endgame hardAI UK was fielding 13 bombers. This save shows them with stack of 11 bombers parked in French Equatorial Africa! Flown there after evacuating Russia. The machine understands the movement and attack power advantage of this unit, but doesn't currently use their bombers to knock down the opponent's production capacity. A few key bombing runs against Germany, in a critical round might have helped hardAI Allies to maintain income parity, but instead the bombers are way off down below the Sahara.

Human Axis went with the "Air Armada" Luftwaffe expansion for Fortress Europa. Letting Japan do the dirty work, Burma push. Clinched for the darkside in the 10th ;)
But still saw some nice Atlantic carrier purchasing by HardAI USA right here at the end...
bomber_game.tsvg
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Re: AI Development Discussion

Black Elk
This post was updated on .
Another game vs HardAI Allies, 12 ipc bid for each.

I think this game shows why some more v3 style sub logic would be nice. Here the Allies were gunning after German subs in the Atlantic, using their bid cruiser in an early attack, but failing. I followed by throwing out a screen with subs, after taking Gibraltar on G1, that allowed me to race around Africa with the German Battleship via the south Atlantic. The Americans could have sunk the German BB had they bypassed Das Boot or hit it with air only, but instead they allowed it to survive and converge with Japan on the Indian side of Suez. Never fun times for the British haha. With Japan I used the East Indies factory to secure the south Pacific and slam India in fairly short order.

bomber_game_German_AfrikaKorps_sneak.tsvg

Germans cracked Moscow in the 6th, with a bomber blitz and tank drive, for the honorable victory. The Soviets liberated their capital at the start of the 7th, but to no real purpose, as G is poised to snatch it back a second time for double the loot.

Is nice to see HardAI UK floating a carrier at the entrance to the Atlantic/Med, holding down the rock at last, even if its way too late for them at this point hehe
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